Hi, welcome to Words of This Life podcast. My name is Pablo and here we share real and impactful Christian stories from believers who love the Lord and his word. Through these testimonies, we want to showcase the virtues of the one who's called us out of darkness into his marvelous light. Virtues that are at work in everyday people, shaping their character, guiding their actions, and shining forth his life into the world. We're so happy you're here with us for this episode and let's get right into it. Welcome back guys to the Words of This Live podcast. Um I'm Io, this is my co-host Pablo and today we're here with a special guest. Hi. Uh my name is Jim and thanks for inviting me to this podcast. We are honored to have you. Yes, Jim is is really good to have you. Um maybe we can begin by telling us you telling us a little bit about yourself, what you do, just a brief bio of yourself. Sure. Sure. Uh my name is Jim. I live in Austin, Texas. Uh I'm married with two kids. Um I uh work as a pharmacist in the community. I uh graduated from the University of Texas at Austin and uh I been practicing pharmacy for the last gosh almost 25 years. Wow. Um but uh you know uh I became a ser a more serious believer a more serious uh Christian when I was in college and so that experience for me was so uh positive and transformative that you know I've always just kind of kept in touch and it was still we're still involved up to this day you know so anyway I'm happy to be here in this podcast uh and talk about you you know, the word of God and about uh the spiritual things in the word. It's wonderful. So, you mentioned in college there was kind of a you became more of a serious believer, but had you known the Lord your whole life? Like were were you born in a believing family or an environment that uh I I think my first contact was around when I was 12 years old. Uh back in the Philippines, uh I had a classmate who gave me one of those small Gideon New Testaments and uh anyway. Yeah. And I was in sixth grade and he read with me, encouraged me to read and from that I felt something that was something I experienced something very positive regarding the word, you know. And so after that he invited me to uh his Christian group and so we had fellowship and I was baptized and so that was very positive but eventually going to high school I somewhat lost interest and so kind of got got away from that a little bit you know so it wasn't until uh I uh started college where I again had a kind of seeking you know to kind of pursue that once again. Um, yeah. Wow, that's tremendous. And go ahead. Did you grow up in a Christian household? No, my uh my parents were Buddhists and so um no, we weren't Christian at all. Nominal Buddhists. Anyway, it's kind of a strange term, but um they weren't that serious, you know, but during holidays or you know uh or you know just customarily you know if you want to consult with a fortune teller and then they would go to the temple and you know uh give some offering and so uh but they weren't that serious you know and so when I was exposed to Christianity they didn't really object um they just thought, "Yeah, well, you know, my I remember my mom saying, well, you know, all religions teach people to be good, so that's that's fine, you know." So, um so yeah, I was very thankful for that. Um, I had uh friends or Christian friends that, you know, also from traditional Chinese families with a strong Buddhist background and uh they received definitely some amount of opposition, persecution because of their faith, you know, but thankfully that didn't happen to me. So, uh, I, as a 12year-old, I was able to touch it in a very simple, uh, way that was all positive. Yeah. Wow. Um, and so, yeah, I see. I'm very thankful for that. I'm still thinking about that Gideon Bible that you got. Yeah. So, you know, to me, it's impressive that the a lot of the way that the Lord reaches people is is is through the word, right? Is is through the Bible. So, did you keep that Gideon Bible for a while? Like, how did you read it a lot? And anyways, I just Yeah. You just love how like the word is the beginning, you know, receiving. Yeah. I I remember during uh that time, I mean, we didn't have phones, you know, to distract us, right? Uh and so yeah, a lot of my pastime with this friend was basically just to read the word and um we we were in a kind of a more preserved time maybe. Um and so uh and you know there's something about the word that's very much alive. Right. Right. So absolutely. And so this friend of mine, he gave me that Bible, but he also shared the gospel to a lot of wow other classmates to where there were a few of us, you know, um we were just in the word uh supplied by reading the New Testament and uh we would ask each other, you know, what different verses mean. And uh we were wanting to share the gospel with our teacher. Wow. So wow. And so and she was an English teacher and so we would uh whenever we had a paper to turn in we would always share something about the gospel. I've asked for at one point our teacher said I know a lot of you are Christians but can you write about something else? Wow. So anyway, uh just in that very simple environment, you could really tell what a positive effect on the the word of God have, you know, and what a testimony it was to to people that were around us, you know. Wow. Um, so yeah, so that experience, even though I somewhat backslid or strayed away in high school, that always stayed with me and that was what made me, you know, seek it again, you know, when I came when I started college. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I'm I'm just imagining a scene of sixth graders reading the Bible. He read this. That's kind of crazy. Even think about and speaking to their teacher every time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's is there any is there we have a lot of other things to speak about but I kind of want to stick here for a little bit. Was there any anything specific any passage that really was like an anchor for you that really captured you? Do you remember? I think it's good. Well, you know, there were a lot of things that uh uh a lot of things of course that were very supplying but you know when you start reading the New Testament Yeah. uh you you go to the genealogy, right? Which is okay. You try to you just kind of plow through it, you know? And then after that, you go to Matthew 5, six, and seven, where the standards, right, of righteousness are so high, right? Where you're just convicted. I remember just as a 12-year-old, I was like, "Wow, I am not any of these things. How can I be?" you know uh but there's something in the word you know it not only shines on you and enlightens you it supplies you so you know we always keep reading and um and I remember even as a even that young uh someone taught me just make the word your prayer just pray over the word who was that someone uh I can't remember it was either that friend who gave me the Bible or or I heard it somewhere from because that's an amazing advice. Yeah. Right. Pray the word. I mean just make the word your prayer. Yeah. So I was simple. So I just did that. So every morning what a friend. I would read a chapter from the New Testament and I would just find a couple of verses and I would just pray over them and then like for example you know uh I don't know blessed are the pure in heart right for they shall see and I would just pray Lord Jesus make me someone who has a pure heart something like this you wow and I would just spend a couple minutes to pray over the And yeah, I was just happy and supplied and enlivened, you know, just from that experience. Um, so yeah, that was um a kind of beginning for me to realize that, you know, there is something uh that the word is food. Yeah. If we take it the right way, right? uh if we if if we don't if we go beyond just trying to understand the text but if we interact with it in prayer right then there's something of the word that's very uh supplying and nourishing you know that's uh it really becomes our food so that's amazing yeah I was going to ask when did your reading of the word become or translate into a relationship with the lord but you just answered it was through that friend suggesting to pray the word I'm sure you began to do a lot prayer and the Lord you found the Lord in the word in a personal way that really spoke and for me it it was kind of an easy way to pray actually just because um you know you ask someone to pray sometimes it's hard to find the words what should I pray yeah what that's right yeah you just go through your wish list once and then yeah what else do you do you know but um but using the words of the Bible to pray. Um I felt like that was a really good way for me to just practice habit of prayer, right? Um it's just yeah, just um that really gave some content to the prayer and just allow me to have a way to communicate, right? So yeah. Um yeah, later on you know um you know we obviously we make more uh we we have more practice and we get better at it, right? But that was a good beginning for me uh to just learn just to turn the the the phrases the words that I read into a simple That's incredible. And that happened at around the age of 12. Around the age of 12. Blessed are you, brother. You know, sometimes I'm I'm having to introduce that thought to, you know, college students or different ones that I I have to meet with. And you find that not a lot of people are familiar with that concept that prayer and the word and the word and prayer are supposed to be mixed, you know, but anyways, the fact that you at 12 began to practice this, it's it's quite a blessing. Yeah. And we, you know, we just stumbled over it and and so you just had a little taste, but sometimes you forget, right? Right. Um so um but anyway I feel like over time you just uh to be brought back to that practice to that life practice you right is always helpful. Yeah because you read the word and there's so many things that are hard to understand and so many things that are mysterious. Yeah. And so many things you just have questions over. And uh sometimes study is good. But if all we do is study, then we sometimes we touch the word but we don't get nourished. Yeah, that's right. Um but when we my experience was we pray over the word you know then that living contact with the Lord through the prayer I feel like is what makes the word uh our food. Yeah. Right. It's really good. Yeah. And I just love that testimony because uh there's a concept that like young like young people might have that I'm too young to have like a meaningful like real relationship with the Lord and what sixth grade. Yeah. And just praying the the word back to the Lord. Yeah. Reading the word just getting nourished by that. That shows like it doesn't matter how young you are. Just be open to the Lord. You're right. But you know nowadays I have the same struggle as everyone. Yeah, sure. That's right. Yeah. It's like, "Oh, it's time to read the Bible. Let's see what's on my phone." You know, and so it's always like, you know, just, you know, I'm glad I was introduced to it when I was young. Yeah. You know, I even I have the same struggle as everybody else, you know, where right where Yeah. Okay. Now, let me let me actually read my Bible and let me actually pray. And sometimes we don't we don't always get there, but that's right. But whenever we do then we feel like it's very uplifting. Yes. Yeah. Especially today with so many things that can impact our reading of the Bible. You know, notifications, thoughts, you know, we all have busy minds, active minds, and you're just reading and sometimes you get maybe too uh concerned about understanding what you're reading. But I like what you're saying that sometimes we shouldn't be discouraged if we don't understand something. You just the main purpose is to get nourishment and to get food out of the Bible. And to learn that early on in your Christian life is just a huge blessing. It's just tremendous. Um well, today we have a kind of a I mean this is great to go about talk about your your testimony, Jim, but we have a topic we wanted to cover which is um the church. It's a big topic is a topic that probably, you know, too too large to to do in one episode, but we'll give it a shot. Yeah. And um yeah. Anyways, I don't know if you wanted to read read the definition of church for us. Yeah. uh put it into context. I know there's a lot of definitions and maybe angles you could look at the church, but just to kind of kickstart us. Yeah, definitely. If you're a Christian, you have some kind of concept of the of the church. Yeah. You know, it's like, of course, I know what the church is. It's the church, right? You know, um and I thought it'd be good if we just read the definition of the church in Miam Webster. The church is a building for public and especially Christian worship. Um that's the first definition. Okay. Um the second definition is that it's the clergy or official dumb of a religious body and some synonyms are a denomination, a congregation. Um so there's these these definitions are kind of outward. Yeah, they're things that people can recognize. Um, but there is this uh thought that Pablo brought up while we were talking about this privately that uh I think blows all these definitions right out. Yeah. So, I'm sure Jim has a lot to say about this too. We'll get to that first. You first. I guess I'll just I'll just put it in in this context that you know these definitions are really interesting to think about because you know we have to match them with what the Bible says, right? But what what I was thinking is that the the the word church doesn't come up till in the New Testament, right? At the very beginning of the New Testament, you have the word church introduced in Matthew 16. But does that mean that the whole Bible, the previous part of the Bible, it's not about the church? So, we we you know, we we were having a conversation with ya and we're realizing that the church is actually very inclusive of the whole Bible. like the thought of the church. It it it is not just a New Testament thought, but it kind of the Bible leads up to that moment. And and you know, we were we were considering and I would like to ask you, Jim, like the Old Testament is uh you know, in your reading of the word, you know, the Old Testament, it doesn't mention the church explicitly, but there is definitely a something that points to it. And one way you can say it is that it points to Christ. The Old Testament really points to the coming of the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ. And you know, he is the one who introduces the church. So we we just want to highlight a little bit why that order, why why first you have Christ a whole you know the Old Testament presenting and prophesying and leading up to the coming of Christ and then you have the church introduced and how those two come together. Why is it that Christ is revealed first and then you have the church revealed by Christ. So um anyways and I think this ties to a person's experience because I think we don't all immediately know what the church is like no believer you know like when you were 12 and you got the Bible you know you began to pray I don't think you knew like what the church was but you had a little bit of understanding of who the Lord was maybe and then eventually as a progressive revelation. So is that something that matches your your your testimony and your experience, Jim, about this kind of order of seeing Christ and then seeing something of the church and kind of Yeah, I think so. Um I think you know uh it's kind of like what you said, right? This this thought was always uh in the New Testament and really the the entire Bible, right? like when uh when God created man uh and you know he created man and he wanted Adam to be you know the beginning of the created race. So right there was you know God desired to have a corporate man right he he's in Genesis 1:26 the Lord said like let us make man in our image after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea over the air. So the thought was always that there was Adam but he would be the source or the beginning of the created race, right? And then later on you have Abraham and he was the father of the called race. So you know these two people they weren't meant to just simply worship God as individuals, right? They were a beginning of a larger group, right? That's right. And so you have Adam as the beginning of the created race and then you have Abraham as the beginning of the called race, right? And then in the New Testament you have you have the church, right? Which is the believers composed uh uh composed of both both Jews and Gentiles. Right? And so there's always this thought I think in the Bible even though church is a New Testament thought there's always a thought in the whole Bible that God wants to be with his corporate people. Right. Right. He's good. And so I think uh this is something of God's design and this is something that the Lord put in us. Yeah. Is that when we believe in him there's something in us that you know I need to be part of something right? It's not just me. I need to be part of something right. Uh and uh certainly when I came to car I thought you yes I want to come back to the Lord but I need to find his people right. So I think it's amazing. Um there's something in every believer that's put there by the Lord and that we we realize um to know the Lord, to know God, I need to be with others who have that same aspiration. Right. That's really good. Um and so that's right. Yeah. So I feel like that was certainly my experience and it matches I think Yeah. um what you mentioned in Matthew 16, right, where Peter had a re revelation of the Lord Jesus being the Christ, right? The son of the living God. And then the Lord told Peter, "Blessed are you, right?" Uh you you didn't just come up with this. I revealed this to you. Reveal this to you. That's right. And and then he said and he changed his name and he said, "Upon this rock, I will build my church." Right. Yes. So immediately after Peter had this stupendous revelation of who Jesus was as the Christ and Christ pointed him to the church. Yes. Is he right? I was thinking of this illustration you know. Yeah. Um you know you know the church is the bride of Christ. So when we when I went when I first meet IO it's very natural. I just say, "Oh, I you know, I'm Jim and this is my wife, Michelle." Right. Right. That's right. Yeah. Right. If you just meet me and not Michelle, you really just get half our story. Half the story. Right. Uh and so this is like the Lord. Okay. You see me? Yeah. This is my wife. This is my wife. Exactly. Right. Right. The church, right? That's exactly right. Uh and so we just I don't know. I just felt like, wow, this it's really a kind of a revelation in two parts, right? We need to see Christ savior and we need to see the church's bride. That's right. It's unnatural if I only have a relationship with Io. Yeah. For years and years and I don't know Tam. That's right. Never met her. I just I like IO. Oh, IO. He's such a great guy, man. Yeah. Tammy, I don't really care for, right? You only know half a bio. Yeah. Right. Yeah. if I don't know her or if I don't like her, if I talk bad about her, you know, that's a dishonor. That's right. To Io, right? That's right. Right. And but sometimes we don't always think of it that way. And so sometimes we can be a little loose, right? I think with our consideration about the church, sometimes we complain. Sometimes we're unhappy. We criticize other members. Right. Right. But you know, if I criticize Tam, I can't certainly can't do it in front of it's a dishonor. Yeah. to aya for me to do that. Absolutely. But a lot of times because um we don't have such a high view of the church sometimes we we fall and uh we don't realize this and you know this is this is the wife of Christ. You you better honor her anyway. And in that example it's probably might be worse for you to say something bad about his wife than him. You know you say something bad about him. You might be okay with that. But someone says something bad about your wife that you feel differently. Yeah. And I think it's it's similar with Christ and the church. You know, you can a moment you touch the church, you you're touching his heart. You're touching what's in in his heart. And anyways, uh so what what about you? Do you all have similar I don't know maybe an experience of you know meeting the Lord and then meeting the church? you've you've can was there some uh experience that you had that kind of um highlighted that for you? Um yeah, I can kind of speak to that. Um so just like you Longhorn Oh, okay. And what started there changed my life. You know what starts there changes the world. Um and I feel left out here. So I grew up with a very like individualistic thought of the Christian life. Um I I just couldn't me also naturally being introverted was hard for me to get along with people that I didn't feel like I wanted to be around. Um um but it was reading through Exodus um that really changed my perspective. like there's a you can read Exodus and see it as a a small picture of the entirety of a of the Christian life. Um cuz so I'm like, "Wow, the Passover lamb, you know, you strike the blood. I mean, you strike the lamb, you kill the lamb, you put the blood on the on the doorpost, and Job, it passes over you. That's a picture of our right of our um redemption through the blood of Christ, right? And then you eat the the lamb and that's Christ as your strength to leave the world. And then that's you see this is like this is what happens to the individual Christian. And then you know on your way out of Egypt there is the baptism waters. You know first Corinthians lets us know that the the opening of the Red Sea was like a baptism and that's like okay we get saved and we get baptized. Okay cool. And now you're baptized out of Egypt and that's out of the world, you know, out of the grip of Satan. And now you're in the wilderness and you have the mana. You have the bitter waters that were turned sweet by the tree. Um you have the rock that was following the the the children of Israel. Um as their supply is, you know, giving water. These are all examples of like uh the Lord supplying us, being nourishing to us, and that's natural for the Christian life. And I'm like, okay, this is great. Like, this is what I'm experiencing. But then like at the end of all of that, J's like, okay, this group of people, they're going to build something, build a building to for me. You know what I mean? Like it's like, okay, he saves us, he nourishes us, but then and that's all for us, but then we get to a point where he's like, okay, now you're going to do something for me. I'm going to build this tabernacle to me so I can dwell among you and that we can have, you know, yeah, in the tabernacle was this shakina glory so you could get face to face with the Lord. And that that changed something for me cuz I was like man like you know this building among this people and God dwelling with his people that that's this court like this this like body it's this group people for uh to God and it's and this is the house of God and that that was like a paradigm shift for me to like enter into this the church which is even a more advanced version of the you know the tabernacle. It's all a dwelling place to God and it's with his people. But I kind of went all off there. But no, that's good. Yeah, that really that really changed things for me uh to to not be so individual but um understand that what the Lord wants is something u corporate. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, that's really good. You know, something that became uh pretty clear to me as at one point in my Christian life is that, you know, I was pursuing the Lord and I was uh seeking the Lord in in my life. And then as you do that, you realize just like getting to know any person, right? There every person has something they love, something they it might not tell you right away, you know, like you might not know what someone really likes for a hobby or what they even do. You know, sometimes some people's jobs are mysterious, you know. when you get to know someone, you find out, oh, like that's what really is in their heart. That's what they really want to do. So, in my experience, I was kind of pursuing the Lord. I was getting to know the Lord uh in the word and in the context of of being with others. But something became really clear, which is that the church is his like I just realized there's something he really wants. And you know, I was thinking about this verse in Acts. Uh it says he purchased the church with his own blood, you know, and the church is his body. And that that really became anyways I just realized like the Lord was just kind of unveiling something like yeah you know you love me, you know, I shepherded you kind of like you're saying you know all these experiences that the old the children of Rzo went through. It's kind of like a cording kind of like a God is kind of like bringing them along, you know, to the to the wilderness, but it's kind of them and God. But then at one point, you know, you get to Exodus 30 and it's like build me a tabernacle. You know, so at one point with me, it was like, yeah, you love me. This is what I love. Like this is this is what I died for. This is what I'm all about. You know, you're all about me, but let me tell you what I'm all about. You know, if you want to really love me, you need to love what I love. And I think at that point I just I just realized that's what's on I love the Lord and that's what on his heart. So if I want to keep following him I better love what he loves. You know I really need to love what he loves and and I think little by little that became you know a little more my life. You know, I you realize I I need to be in a certain context with like you're saying with other believers, which I like what you said, Jim, that every believer has a desire to be I would even every non even non-believers have a desire to be part of a group, you know, you know, we're part of teams, we're part of like, you know, things, you know, we're friend groups, sports teams, and there's a desire for community and all of us. And I think that's a just a match of what God has put in us, you know, and what God has in his heart, right? Yeah. So anyways, that that's kind of a little bit of what happened to me. I just realized God has something and I better love what he he wants, which is the church, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think uh for me too over over time uh I feel like there's you know as as I as I go on with the Lord I feel like this thing of what you what y'all mentioned it's become more for me at least become more and more clear that the church is something that's tied to God's purpose. Wow. This is something deep in his heart. Right. Yeah. Uh right. when you when you were talking, Pablo, it reminded me of this verse in Ephesians 5, right? But Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her. Of course, there's verses that said, you know, he loved me. Yeah. Right. And gave himself up for me. That's right. But in Ephesians 5, he loved the church. He gave himself up for her. Like I kind kind of like that verse in Acts 20 where he purchased the church with his own blood, you know. Right. Right. And so I feel like as I go on and like what you said I a lot of times we come to the Lord because we need something. We need forgiveness. We need redemption. We're need salvation. We need food. But then eventually the Lord brings us okay you know you've had your me needs met and now you need realize my need my need for a dwelling place. Right. Right. And so I feel like as we go on, as I go on in the Christian life, uh for me at least, one thing uh that becomes uh clearer is this matter of the church. Wow. God's purpose. Right? So to me it makes sense in Matthew 16. Okay. You see Christ, then you see the church, right? You can see you can say Christ you know he is the expression the definition of God right and so when you see Christ you see God right but when you see the church you see God's purpose right and so a lot of times as believers um we talk about God's purpose for me right where go what's God's will for me what's God's purpose for me and I don't know if we always put that in in a larger context than God's purpose. Right? Sometimes we think about what's my purpose, but we don't consider ourselves in the context of what God's purpose. Right? Right? Sometimes we pray or we ask the Lord, should I be, you know, should I be an engineer or should I should I be a pharmacist? Should I live in Austin or should I live somewhere else? Right? Um but if we only seek the Lord in those ways, right, and we don't give due consideration, the church as God's purpose, then it's almost like we're lost. Yeah. You know, in something that's not really his focus. You know what I'm saying? Right. I I don't know if that makes sense or not. It does, you know. Um Yeah. Yeah. If if if you know I love my wife, you know, I give her flowers at our anniversary, you know, and you know, I text her heart emojis, you know, I don't know, like I do these things for her, but then I neglect our family. She would say, "This doesn't really make sense. You love me, you should love what I love." Yeah, right. You love me, you should know my heart is set on our family, right? Uh and so anyway, I I feel like yeah, as as we go on uh and we seek the Lord in all aspects of our lives, uh more and more, for me at least, it's a kind of uh uh it's a kind of seeing more clearly well my life within the larger context of God's purpose. It's a message. Yeah. As you're speaking that example, I'm just thinking, you know, this this about you and your wife and you, you know, loving someone knowing what they care about, you know, like that's a different kind of loving than just loving aimlessly. You know, you just realize God is a person. God just like you love something, I love and and you know, for me to love you, the love is going to be different if I know what you care about. You know, in the same way, God God is a God loves something, you know. He and he cares about something. And sometimes we love him without knowing what he cares about, you know. It's kind of a kind of a love that's kind of blind maybe. You know, but when you when you know someone, you know, cares about like, you know, your wife cares about her family. So, you better care for the family if you want to care about her, you know. Same thing with God. You want to love him, love him in in in the context of what he loves, you know. So, just good to get to know God in that level, I guess. Like a person that's what he cares about. And actually we our life gets full of meaning meaning when we get into that what God loves. You know loving what God loves makes us really happy you know. Yeah. You definitely can feel that you know that when you're in the things of God you can tell he's happy you're happy indwell like internally you just feel he's happy about this. Yeah. Yeah. And I I'm I'm pretty sure we all have experiences that it's good. Yeah. It's like there's moments when we're just a hump in the church and we're just like man this is great. I I had one of those moments recently and it was just kind of it's kind of funny. So, uh on like like Mondays I have like uh high schoolers come to my place and um we just we sing some songs and we read the Bible and I was just sitting there. We we went through the book of Romans and we got to Romans 16 and we're just reading off the names and um I'm like my my brother's actually in that in that meeting. He was like there's a lot of names in Romans 16 and I'm like yeah that's a lot of names to pronounce a lot of names in Romans 16. Yeah. Yeah. And the fact that Paul could call each person out and he put his relationship with them. Yeah. Like greet this sister. She was like a mother to me. Tremendous. greet this person. I was they were in the work with me. Oh wow. You can feel the affection that Paul had there. Yeah. And my brother was like, "Why are there so many names?" And we just went back to the earlier chapters and I was like, "Each one of these people was a sinner that became a son of God." Yeah. Like that's what these preceding chapters were about. And then they were built into the body of Christ and now it's being expressed as the church. And I don't know, they were they left, but I just sat there and I was like, man, this is my life. Wow. I'm enjoying the church with young people reading the Bible. Like, this is what I was made for and this is what God loves and I am deeply satisfied. I was there washing the dishes. I was just like, I goodness. I carry this is so funny. I'm getting there so much supply out of like reading the Bible with 13-year-olds. One is sleeping, one is like looking for dessert, but one is like really asking a question. And then here's another one that's like helping him answer the question. And it's like we're reading the Bible and we're enjoying the Lord together. It's Wow. You just Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah. I uh yeah as you were talking I it reminded me of this one verse right in John 15 where the Lord says you know uh these things I say to you that my that my joy may be in you right joy they may be made full right right uh there is a uh there is a joy a deep abiding joy and taking care of branches in the vine and of bearing fruit, right? Um and uh and you know, I remember, you know, at one point in my uh work working life as a pharmacist, it's like, man, you know, I I'm in healthcare. I want to do, you know, satisfying, meaningful work and I just thought, man, I don't know if this is it, you know, right? But many times in my church church experience kind of like IO I just had this feeling you know you you have people younger than you. You help them touch the Lord. You help them know the Lord. You just open your home to be with them and afterwards you just have this deep abiding joy. Wow. From the Lord. And that's really good. And and like what you brother are saying, it's like when you're in a center of what he loves. Yeah. Then there's just a satisfaction there and a contentment there that you can't find anywhere else. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. So, and you know, I just love that story of the high schoolers, you know, that can't that experience can't happen but you you alone in your house, you know, like you can never have that, you know, that realization, that deep joy, the Lord's joy becoming your joy. That only happens in the context of being with the other believers, you know, and you know, to be the church, you don't have to have the just a few in your house. That's that's an expression of the church, you know. So, you can actually I love that it's in your house because in your house is the best, you know, like anyways, we're all married. You know, sometimes when people are coming over to your house and anything going on between you and your wife, as soon as they arrive, you forget what happened. You know, you better forget, you know, and then when they leave, you're like, what were we fighting about? You know, like that's right. So the church really saves us in a sense, you know, it just it's a further salvation to us, you know, like by yourself, you and Christ, you and the Lord, it goes to certain you get saved to a certain degree, but when you include the believers in your life, in your daily life, there's a deeper salvation. That's right. And to me, that's way the Lord, it's not just something the Lord loves, but we start loving it and we realize this saves me. Like I need this in my life. if I don't have this in my life, you know, woe me, you know, me, just me alone and me, myself and I. And so anyways, to me, that's what the church is to us, right? Our salvation. Yeah. You I was thinking of this one verse recently in in Matthew 18, right? Where the Lord says, "Where there are two or three, right, gather into my name, there I am in their midst." Right. Right. And I just love that verse because it just shows like our gatherings in the church, our gatherings with others a lot of times is just greater than the sum of its parts, right? You have two or you have three and then the Lord adds him, right? And then now you have something there that's more than just two or three. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And uh anyway, I just uh yeah, I'm just like you said, a lot of times I think the somewhere close to that ver well, I don't know. Better look it up. Look it up right now. We got we got Bibles here. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I got the electronic version. Great. You got Matthew 18, right? For where there are two or three gathered into my name. Yes, there am I in their midst. And then verse 21 says, "And Peter said came and said to him,"Lord, how often shall I shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him up to seven times?" And Jesus said to him, "I did not say to you up to seven times, but up to 70* seven." Right? Anyway, what you said, Pablo, just remind me remind me of this. You know, Peter was there just not happy with something, right? It's like the Lord says, "How how long should I put up with this brother? How long should I forgive him? Wow. Right. It's kind of like you said, sometimes, you know, you and your wife, you have something going on. Yeah. And then somehow the Lord's presence is there when there are two or three gathered. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Like you you're just like there's this problem, but then the Lord comes and it's like, yes, we're all failures. We all offend each other. Uh we have trouble forgiving. Oh, and like the Lord just comes into our midst in the middle of the two and three and we're just blessed, right? We're just supplied, encouraged just by the presence of the Lord in the midst of our gathering and it's easier to forgive and it's easier dear forgive. Yeah. Right. Yeah. The Lord is there who can forgive. Yeah. 70* 7. Oh my goodness. That means unlimited forgiveness. Wow. So, um Yeah. So anyway, like what you brothers are saying, yeah, there's a higher enjoyment and there's a higher blessing, right? Yeah. By being in the church, by being with others like the Lord just visits us even at our in a when we're in a low condition. Yes. Yeah. That's a you know, you said something uh Jim, we're all failures. And that's really true, you know, like to me there's a moment also of a like a light bulb moment where you realize, yeah, the church is wonderful. God is God's, you know, heart. But then you realize the church is composed of fallen normal people, you know, and you you realize it's not this perfect, at least now, of course, the church one day will be perfect and glorious and without wrinkle and such, but you realize in in today it's composed by normal people who have, you know, all the, you know, traits that we all we all struggle with. And um to me that's uh kind of where the rubber meets the road moment where you realize yeah like I really need the Lord you know like anyways I had this I just got to share a little experience. I had this roommate in college, you know, when I first uh was a freshman and and anyways, I was living with with some brothers and uh I didn't get along with this brother, you know, I was there that was my church life, you know, I was in this house and I was, you know, God arranged for me to be with this brother and anyways, you realize, yeah, the Lord can call anyone he wants, you know, like we have no choice in who the Lord saves and who we're with. And I was with this brother who was unlike me, you know, I was unlike him and we different everything as different as you can get. And but we were there and um then you realize, yeah, the Lord is doing something really deep with us when we're in the church, you know, like you just learn to enjoy the Lord. You learn to pray. you learn to and then something happens, you know, you just realize to me at least it saved me because you realize the church is not always going to be, you know, we're not idealists, you know, it's not going to be perfect. Like everyone I love, I get along with everybody, but there's something really wonderful when we learn to be fitted together. When we just learn, you know, God is doing something so wonderful with all of us that but it takes sometimes some, right, some deeper work. So to me that's helpful because you could be discouraged easily if you realize oh like what like I don't like this church you know I don't like being with these people but then you realize the Lord is doing something really deep with us that it actually it's about that like that's part of the experience to learn to so anyways I don't know if you brothers have some experiences of kind of like realizing that the Lord is doing something like the the work of building the church is actually very inward you know it's very much touches even who we are. I don't know. I think I'm starting to realize more that that's part of the Lord's process salvation with us, right? Is that's uh um like you said, being with a brother that you don't get along with. And I was just reading some verses recently. And it just encouraged me that the early church had had this kind of problem too, you know, uh, you know, in I think I think it's Acts six or something like that where they, you know, all the believers, they had all things in common. But then the widows that spoke Greek, they were being overlooked, overlooked in favor of being overlooked uh, versus the widows who spoke Hebrew, right? Right? You know, so already in the church in the beginning there was this kind of cultural I don't know if they intended it or is unintentional but in the beginning already there was a little friction. Wow. That's due to culture. Right. Yeah. Right. And then later on it eventually uh in you know Acts 15 you know the Jewish believers they were some were insisting like okay you gentile believers you need to keep the law of Moses. So like in the beginning already you could see some strife in the early church that's based on religion and based on culture and this is something yeah this is by design you know the Lord the Lord didn't say okay Jewish believers you just be a church here and the gentile believers be a church here no the Lord just kind of threw us all together and then and then when you're thrown together like this you just realize Lord Jesus I need to be saved Amen. Right. Not only saved from sin. Not only safe from the world, but saved from myself, our culture. Right. It's really It just reminds me of that verse in Matthew 16, right? After the Lord t told Peter about the church. Yeah. Right. And then he says, "If you want to follow me, you need to deny yourself." Right. Right. Right. And you know, and I feel like my experience is the more I'm in a church, the more I realize there's something in me that doesn't fit right. Yeah. Yes. There's something I need to uh deny who I am. I need to deny myself, right? To fit in this thing. That's right. All the church, right? Uh and as believers, this is this is God's purpose, right? And I realized, wow, how much the Lord has to work in us. and operate in us to produce this thing, you know. Yes. That's tremendous. I think there's a verse in Ephesians 2, right, where it talks about we are his masterpiece, right? That's right. Like this is this is I don't know. This is Christ. This is God's masterpiece. That's right. That he could bring all these sinners from all these different backgrounds really. So just build them up together into a corporate entity that expresses him. Yes. Even the even you know in Genesis the world was created in six days. Yeah. You know there's a lot of things in nature that I was just like wow that's amazing. But you know what that's not his masterpiece. Yes. The church is his masterpiece. Yeah. And so, wow. I think you know, uh, yeah, when the Lord comes back, we will just appreciate and marvel. Yeah. Really all the work that he has done really. And he has accomplished to make all these selfish sinners fall into the uttermost. Yeah. So different, so do get along. Yeah. All of a sudden at the end, it's like, wow, this is God's dwelling place. All the members fitted together. They're not expressing themselves. They're expressing Christ. Anyway, that's amazing. Really something. Yeah. And uh Yes. Yeah. So, today we're in the process. We're in the process. I like that. We're in the process. Yeah. There's a there's a verse that I love um that's really ministered what you just shared about the denial of self for for this for this church. Um for the church. Um, that's Romans 14:15. For because of food, your brother is wounded. You no longer walk according to love. Do not destroy by your food that man in Christ died. Wow. And it's it I don't know that verse just ministers to me that this member in the body, this other person that I might have an issue with, this is a person that Christ died for. And this person is a part of God's masterpiece. And he went through like a he went through a process to even conceive the church. Like if you think of it like God became a man and then lived this human life, crucified um resurrected, ascended and then you know at the end of the gospels he breathed the spirit into the disciples John 20:22. And so he was indwelling them. And then in Pentecost, the day of Pentecost, the spirit of power comes upon them. So these people that Christ died for, he's now indwelling them. And he's all they're also in him in the spirit. And like what kind of like environment is that where Christ is in all and is all and he's filling all and he's he's everything. You get that in the church. You can feel that. You enjoy that. But like if you're if you're so caught up in yourself, you'll just miss the masterpiece that the that the church is. You won't even get to enjoy it because you're worried about your food, you know. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. It's really good. I like Yeah. It's by design, right? This is God's design. Yeah. was thinking of I think is is it Acts 13:14 where Paul Silas and a are ministering to the Lord a few brothers are praying but all those brothers so different you know Greek Jew there's some brothers from Africa you know there's like right there's a brother from Niger it's just like all these brothers from all these backgrounds but they're there ministering to the Lord you know and that's by design like the Lord but it is it's not like as soon as I realize sometimes you marvel that oh you know let's say in this gathering there's so and so from that place so and so from that place and that's glorious story is okay but really it's the Christ in them that's is that really is the church you know so right this matter of like we denying ourselves is so true but I think our denying of ourselves on the flip side is our gaining of Christ you know right like as we deny ourselves Christ grows in us and a little bit more right so like you can't just deny yourself as you deny yourself you're probably choosing Christ right and then that growth in us then makes us able to be in that you know with other brothers you know It's not just counseling us, but it's the increase of Christ in us that eventually allows us to be with anybody cuz he's the only one to keep fit anywhere, right? So, yeah. Anyways, growth, brothers. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. there there is some dimension to our growth I think that's maybe many times we don't think about and that is you know our our growth is commensurate to the amount of uh building up that we experience right um you know the church is is the body of Christ you know and so you're the you know the different parts of our body they don't grow individually right you you work out like your you exercise your muscles they grow in unison right it would be weird if like you have a big bicep and everything else is that's right not proportional that's right so uh anyway I I feel like there's something here to where you know when we talk about growth uh a lot of times uh where we only have a kind of an individualistic view. But um you know our growth is um there's that verse right about talking about how we we are growing into a holy temple the Lord. That's right. Right. So the this matter of growth and building Yeah. they go side by side. That's right. Right. And so that's right. You can't just grow and then just and then not build up. That's right. The more we grow, the more suitable we become for the building. That's right. I like the example of the muscles. Yeah. It would be weird. The growth is like is checked by the body. Like the the body like you know like that's why it's so good to be with others because you know you could be like an empa you know a oneliner. you just emphasize, you know, you just grow in maybe your gospel preaching or or you know, maybe you a lot of us have, you know, an inclination or or we lean a certain way and but when we're in the in with other believers like in any context in our homes or we get we get like tempered and we get kind of our growth just fits in, you know what I mean? Like is dangerous to just if I was alone all the time, you know, who knows, maybe I I'd just be an abnormal member, you know what I mean? So, so I just like this growth and building like your growth has to fit in the building and then the building you know checks your growth and then you just and then the body just grows in a in a really beautiful way right that's right so anyways I just hope even our listen you know even our listeners you realize growth is is so key for this whole thing right we can't just be passive hoping to just see the church without without growing so anyways yeah And you know, one of the most popular verses in Christianity about growth is uh 1 Peter 2:2 as newborn babes, newborn babes long for the guless milk of the word in order that you may grow onto salvation. Amen. That was Peter's instruction. But you know if you go like what is it three verses he says you yourselves also as living stones are being built up as a spiritual house into a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. M so you see this you get this illustration of grow grow enjoy more Christ you know and but then it's like Peter's orienting us to to see that we are being built up wow amazing for this dwelling place for the church for this temple and it's like like you said uh what is what did you say our growth is com comserate commensurate yeah we need some big words for the bike at this guy we might just we might need to like flash a definition that's Right. Peace. But yeah, our growth, it's tied to our to our being built into the body. Yeah. It's built into the church. That's right. Yeah. Wow. Jim, could you share a little bit about, you know, you you've been following the Lord a few more years than us? How how how have you been able to just live a life a Christian life where where you you know, you keep growing like you you just like how is growth made real in uh in all the stages of life? You know sometimes as a single person you you have a certain context you know then you get married then you have kids but how can we how can we grow daily as believers like what what what what is something that will keep us growing or yeah some experience or some just handles about growth. Yeah. Um I think one thing that was shared with me one time that was very helpful uh regarding growth right is uh this verse in Colossians chapter 2 where it talks about I think it's 2:19 about uh the body growing with the growth of God. Right. Right. So um so I think one thing that's helpful to to uh to define at first is to is is what is growth? Yeah, that's good. And so sometimes we think of growth in very outward terms. You know maybe you serve more or maybe you could become more zealous. Right? Is that growth? Well, you know, in this verse, it talks about how, you know, we can grow with the growth of God, right? Of course, God Yeah. doesn't grow in himself, right? But he grows in us. And his growing in us is our spiritual growth, right? And so, um, I think that's something that's very helpful is that, you know, we don't measure our growth with outward things, but spiritual growth is the growth. is the increase of God among us, right? Um Amen. And so for me, I feel like uh you know, it's it's I don't know how easy it is to measure your own growth. You know, like I have a teenage son. He certainly doesn't feel like he's growing, right? But if you see him, you know, a year apart, then you would realize, oh yeah, this guy's growing, right? So I don't know if that's something that we can measure that uh you know something we that we can it's that obvious from day to day. Mhm. But I feel like a lot of times you know growth is a matter of faith right. So as long as we eat as long as we're nourished as long as we're supplied then you can just have faith that there's some growth happening in you. And uh and at least for me uh this is what what you know and I know it's hard for everyone you know and we all need help uh and we all have a lot of failures but you know for me I feel like one thing that's helpful and one thing to keep in mind is just to have some time in the word every day right that's good preferably the morning. Yeah. But if your morning just gets in front of you, then you endeavor sometime during the day. Yeah. To have some time in the word and not just, you know, to to read, but to really have some prayer in the word. Uh and and you know, this is something that I try to do, certainly not perfect. Uh and this is something I feel like uh I'm learning also to for for believers younger than me or like you know my kids or even you know my wife we try to have a little time in the word. It's good and I together as a family. Yeah. Well it's wonderful. Yeah. Sweet. It's really it's Yeah. Anyway, I remember the kids were at a certain age, you know, and they would read those new Old Testament verses and they all have very funny names. Yeah. You know, the the the the chapters were like, you know, this person begot this person begot this person. And with me as an adult, I just try to get through it, you know, just let's just get through it. Let's move on to the stories, you know. But with the kids, they had so much fun like saying those names was great. They was just laughing and laughing and the next day he said, "Can we read that chapter?" He gets No, we Oh, they're experts at the genealogy, huh? Genealogy experts. Uh, but anyway, um, yeah, that's something one one thing that I try to practice. It's good. And you brothers still have this problem, but for me as kind of an older Christian, uh, sometimes the temptation is to give advice. It's good. Give advice. uh you know a younger brother you know like come to me and say hey Jim what do you think about this and inwardly I was like oh I have experience I I know what you should do in this situation right and and I'm learning um you know what when we do that we rob them of the chance for God to grow in them you know wow that's and so um anyway one thing that I'm trying to practice more. Wow. Is with younger believers. Don't give advice. That's really good. Right. Pray together. Yeah. Invite the Lord into the situation. Yeah. Right. Uh I've had so many failures. You know, when I'm in healthcare, someone asked me, "Oh, should I go in pharmacy?" And I said, "Oh, let me tell you about pharmacy." Yeah. and I spend an hour 90% just my experiences my knowledge of the field and then the last 10% let's pray and I realized man that is kind of lopsided so so anyway I try to practice now well maybe it should be the other way right you you have experience you can't deny you have experience but allow the lord room right maybe 10% advice and then 90% prayer. Wow. And so, uh, anyway, uh, I feel like, you know, more and more with time and through mistakes, um, I'm somewhat endeavoring, you know, to grow, we come to the Lord. Yeah. To help others grow, we lead them to the Lord. Right. We lead them to And uh, and and in this way, you know, God grows. Yeah. They grow with the growth of God within them. And God grows when we allow him the room in our hearts, you know, when we invite him in. Wow. And so he is increasing within us. And this growth together, yeah, is what constitutes the church. Yeah. So anyway, that's just a little bit of my experience. But I mean, you know, I'm sure you all have experiences too, like how what are some things that, you know, helps you in your Christian life? What are some things that help you in in the growth in life? I mean, pretty recently, my younger brother asked me to read the Bible with him. Yeah. Yeah. And it was before his college day started and he was, it was during finals week. He needed some, you know, he needed some supply. Yeah. Absolutely. And I don't know, those those moments were so sweet. Like I I was in I was at the office at work and it's like 8 am and I'm tired and I can hear the the tired like tone in his voice. But we're like let's read the Bible right now. We want to start the day with the Lord. And we were going through Matthew and those moments were just so sweet. I mean the the formula is there. Start the day with the Lord because when you start the day with the Lord, you're [ __ ] The middle of the day you're probably going to be with the Lord, but you're going to go back to what you started the day with. Yeah. And um especially for me to share that kind of fellowship with my blood brother. Wow. Who I I I'd been praying to the Lord about for a while that when he when he said, "Hey, I want to read the Bible." I looked up at the Lord. I was like, "Goodness, looked at the sky." I was like, "What? Um, but yeah, just just moments like that, reading reading the word with my brother, even getting to pray with him, we I could tell together we were growing. That was so wonderful. Wow. Wonderful. I by no means have a good batting average. Maybe it's like, yeah, 50%, probably. We're doing well. 50%. If we read the word, it's better than zero, right? So, we just try and then we fail and we fail over and over and we we just come back and we just try again, you know? Um, but to the to the extent that we do it, I just feel like it's so healthy. It's so healthy. Right. And uh and yeah. Wow. Our our family see us fail the most. Yeah. Um that's good. I've only seen the perfect version of I thought it was perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And man, when I see the perfect version of Pablo, right mess about my kids, they see the worst of me. My wife, they see the worst of me. But it's good to just have some contact in the word. Yes. And uh and realize we're all fallen. We're all adamantic. We're all sinful. We're all terrible. But but the salvation is with the growth, right? There's no other way. That's right. We can't just fix ourselves. Yes. But um having a kind of a healthy deposit of the word, you know, helps us helps us turn to him. Yes. Uh strengthens us to apologize to one another. Yeah. Right. Strengthens us to to turn to help each other turn to him. Yeah. Brothers, going back to this thought that Jim, you brought up about that, you know, the church is the the genuine church is the growth of God, right? like the growth of God is really what makes up the church is nothing else, right? So, but there's things that that are kind of like it's not God growing in us, but it kind of looks it's like a substitute of God, you know. Could we talk about a little bit in our experience when you know you think you're growing, but it's actually not. It's not the genuine growth of God. You know, like one thing is just like spirituality. You know, sometimes you you you you think like, "Oh, I'm growing." But is that the genuine growth of God? You know, like sometimes it's just uh something maybe it's just knowledge or it's just, you know, spirituality or you know there the enemy loves to kind of like give you know give substitutes for like what the genuine growth of God is. So I don't know if I think it might be helpful even for the listeners to realize what not to get introspective but maybe just to talk about what are some things that maybe in our experience have been we caught ourselves or we realize man that I need to ch you know that's not God growing in me or that's I don't know if I'm if you brothers kind of catch my my vibe here. I feel exactly I know exactly what you're talking about, you know, like but then that's that's when you know sometimes someone will mention something or just under the light with the Lord, you realize, oh man, that's not the Lord, you know, that's not really the Lord, you know. Yeah. For the last few months, I've been reading the New Testament and studying it. Um, and for me, I'm going be very honest, I just didn't want to be ignorant. M I wanted to know verses. I wanted to know how to chain verses. I wanted to know how to speak the truth, know where to find it. Um, if there was a question that came up in a group I was in, I wanted to be able to somehow answer it. So, I'd been reading uh the New Testament and I was just, you know, honestly, I was just like I was like, I got to read this. I got to know this. I just have to know this. I can't go on in my life not getting into this. Um so those those uh those long reading sessions they they started becoming like religious and routine and they started to like be dry and it became a chore and I realized that I I was reading I wasn't really praying anything like you said just reading the word and not and praying it back is such a a special special fellowship you can have with the Lord. praying the word back to him. I had just been reading. I'd be like, "Okay, this verse, okay, this is this is what this word means. This is what this means. This is what it relates to." And I would move on to the next one. And I would have a whole reading session and I hadn't prayed once. And I felt like the Lord was touch you touched me one time. He was like, "You're just reading this. You're not even you didn't pray at all. You didn't prayed before you began. You didn't pray during. You didn't pray after. You didn't even talk to me. And this book is about me. Maybe if you know you enjoyed me in this, maybe this verse would be stuck with you and when you shared it's not just dead knowledge, but it's actually your your actual enjoyment of Christ. like you memorized and you know this verse and you can recite it because you enjoyed it, you know, not because they're just like put it in a filing cap in your brain and yeah, definitely the seeking of knowledge was was a substitute for me and I'm thankful to the Lord that he called that out and those those tedious reading sessions I've become exponentially better. Wow. Amen. Doing it with the Lord. Amen. Amen. Amen. Amen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just kind of thinking about your question, Pablo. Um, yeah. There are things that can be substitutes, right? Good things. Um, you know, one thing I was thinking about was Peter in his zeal. Sometimes we mistake zeal for growth. Right. That's right. And so Peter, in his zeal, right, he says, right? The Lord said, "Okay, one of you, right, betray me." And then the Peter's like, "That's not me." Yeah, that's right. Not me. Could not me. Yeah. Could it possibly be me? Wow. Right. Uh even if all these people deny you, I will never deny you. Right. Uh Peter had this kind of zeal. Wow. Right. And and then the Lord uh allowed him to fail story. He denied Peter denied the Lord three times. He allowed him to fail. Probably Peter was very disappointed in himself. Very disappointed. Right. And then in John 21, right, the Lord recovered him. Yeah. And the Lord asked Peter, "Peter, do you love me?" And then the Lord uh and then Peter says, "Yes, I love you." And then the Lord says, "Feed my sheep. Shepherd my sheep." you know, um I I believe in that instant Peter had growth because his self-confidence Yeah. was torn down, right? And he failed. And now he realized he can't be he he's not better than anyone else, right? And because he was brilliant, he was not higher than others, he can now shepherd his sheep, you know. Wow. And so I feel like a lot of times, you know, our genuine growth um involves the tearing down, the tearing down oursel really. But also the genuine growth uh allows us to supply others with the Christ that we've enjoyed. Yeah. You know um in first Peter chapter 2, right? The verse that you brought and we talked about how he come to him, right? Coming to him as a living stone, right? You yourselves also. Yeah. As living stones. Uh and to me that word is just precious that Christ himself is a living stone. That means he's the constituent of the building, right? A lot of times we come to Matthew 16, oh yeah, I will build my church. We just think, oh yeah, that means Christ is building something. And sometimes we imagine, oh yeah, he's building a mansion. Yeah, right. You know, somewhere else, right? Uh but in first Peter 2, he's the he's a living stone. That means he's the constituent of God's building. Yeah. He himself is the material, right, for God's building. Um, and then he says, "You also That's right. as living stones." Right. That implies we're men of clay. We're Adamic. Right. It implies transformation. Right. Right. We are we are being changed inwardly. Right. The the old the are fallen the the fallen the negative elements of our being are being discharged. Mhm. But Christ is adding himself to us as as as the building material so that we can be living stones, right? To be the same as he is, you know, for for God's building as living stones. And so, um, I I feel like a lot of times regarding this matter of growth for God's building, um, there has to be some exposure that's that allows the negative element in us to be exposed. So, and then we realize, oh, I need to go. Yeah. Right. Lord Jesus, I am not fit for God's building. Wow. I can't forgive my brother. I can't get along. I need you. Right? And so in that when we when we are exposed then we are more I don't know we're more seeking and we're more desperate and we allow Christ to come in right as a building constituent as a building material. Yeah. Um and so getting back to your question I think yeah we we have a lot of substitutes and we're selfdeceived a lot but when the Lord exposes us then we realize ohh my real need I need the Lord. I need the Lord. I need Christ building material, you know. That's good. Uh yeah. Yeah. And a lot of times what we think we're gifted in Mhm. it's actually a hindrance. That's right. It's actually hindrance. Yeah. Your gifts, your ability, your your great musician musician, you're great this great speaker. You're a great speaker. Yeah. But it's just a substitute. That's right. It's just a substitute, right? That's Yeah. I like that. We all need to come to that moment. Lord, I'm not I'm not I cannot. I just need you, you know, and then that's a genuine grow. So, I think if we have that, yeah, the Lord will have we'll have something within us, you know. Amen. One thing we like to do with every one of our guests is uh speak about something I've been enjoying in the word lately. So, uh Jim, yeah. Uh yeah. Well, one thing uh that impressed me and also as you know kind of a preparation was just reviewing Paul's experience again in Acts chapter nine, right? Um to me it's just impressive how uh you know just like Matthew 16, you see Christ and Christ leads you to the church. Right. Right. I feel like Paul's experience in Acts 9 somewhat just mirrors. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Right? He uh he was on the road to Damascus. He got knocked down, right? And then he said, "Who are you, Lord? Who are you, Lord?" And then the Lord says, "I'm Jesus whom you persecute." Right? And then and then he asked, "What should I do? What shall I do now?" That's right. And then the Lord says, "Someone else will tell you that." That's paraphrasing. Yeah. Probably Paul's like, "Well, just tell me. I'm here. You're here. Just tell me." Right. But the Lord by design, you know, I'll answer the first question, but I won't answer the second question. Someone else will answer the second question. And so he had to wait the ananas to come, right? And and Ananas told him, okay, well, now you have to be baptized, right? And then later on that chapter, uh, he was preaching and then he was persecuted and he had to be lowered through a wall in the basket. Yeah. Right. Uh, and to me, I just I just love this story of Paul because he he was and he was going to be useful. He's going to read he's going to write 14 epistles. This most useful person, he had to learn early on like he you need to know Christ, but you also need to know the church. Yeah. I'll speak to you directly, but the speaking will also come through the church. Yes. Right. And you need to know early on that you need others. Yeah. I think as he was being lowered in that basket, I don't think you can escape the feeling like I need others. Lord Jesus, he that brother drop me, you know. Yeah. Uh he was in a desperate situation. Peter had a miraculous deliverance. Angel came and delivered him. Paul didn't. You just had to sit there in that basket being lowered hoping that the brother on the other on the other end of the basket doesn't drop you. You know, I I don't think Yeah, at that moment I don't think it was very theoretical to Paul. I think at that moment he realized, wow, I really need the others. I really need the church. And that's amazing. And so anyway, I just I just feel like as believers, we all have we all need these kinds of experiences, right? where we realize okay I need the Lord and the Lord is rich but I also need others and I think we talk about a lot of times uh we don't get along we have friction right you have roommates you don't get along this we all have those experiences right but um but the Lord has to save us enlighten us deliver us so that eventually we would know that we need others that's right the church we need the other members That's wonderful. Wow. One of my earliest experiences was with a brother who was my peer and uh I was a college student. We were both 19 years old and uh and uh inwardly I always well anyway I was jealous of him. He was he was you know good speaker, funny, very engaging and I always felt a little intimidated you know a little bit uh in rivalry with him and so uh and then later on we had the prayer time I didn't even choose it I I was so funny I may have avoided him a little bit but eventually he approached me he's like let's pray about this you know and so we prayed together and anyway way. I just remember after that first prayer time, my feeling just completely switched and and I and I just had such a sweet feeling. Oh, that's sweet. With his brother. And anyway, that experience always stayed with me like the Lord really has given me. Yeah. All your relationships need to have this turn. Need to have this term. That's good. where you're not just relating to others according to your natural man, according to your flesh, but you have a relationship in the spirit. That's good. And a relationship of prayer. So, uh, so anyway, I just feel like, you know, uh, for our listeners, for myself, we need I need I need more experiences. Yeah. Of this, right? Experiences not just of the Lord himself personally, right? But of the church corporately. That's right. and our uh Christian experience is enriched uh the more we have uh a spiritual relationship with the Lord and the more we have a spiritual relationship with others. That's wonderful. Thank you, Jim. That was I feel the cherry on top of the whole podcast. I feel I feel those two questions should be in all of us. Who are you Lord Christ? What shall I do now in the church? And as we, you know, go through that in our own life, I think, yeah, we'll be, like you said, we we need that experience. We need that order of experience. Amen. Thank you so much for sharing that. It's been great having you. Yeah. Thank you. Maybe we'll have you again sometime. Yeah. Yeah. Amen. Great. Amen. Thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to hit that like button, subscribe, and leave us a comment below. We love chatting with you guys. We've got so much more content and powerful testimonies coming your way. So follow us on our socials and until next time, stay safe. Keep speaking about the words of this life.