Pablo: Hi, welcome to Words of This Life podcast. My name is Pablo and here we share real and impactful Christian stories from believers who love the Lord and His word. Through these testimonies, we want to showcase the virtues of the one who's called us out of darkness into His marvelous light. Virtues that are at work in everyday people, shaping their character, guiding their actions and shining forth His life into the world. We're so happy you're here with us for this episode and let's get right into it.

Ayo: Welcome back, guys, to the Words of This Life podcast. I'm Ayo, this is my co-host, Pablo. And today we're here with a special guest.

Jim: Hi, my name is Jim, and thanks for inviting me to this podcast.

Pablo: We are honored to have you. Yes, Jim, it's really good to have you. Maybe we can begin by having you tell us a little bit about yourself, what you do, just a brief bio of yourself.

Jim: Sure, sure. My name is Jim. I live in Austin, Texas. I'm married with two kids. I work as a pharmacist in the community. I graduated from the University of Texas at Austin, and I've been practicing pharmacy for the last, gosh, almost 25 years. Well, but, you know, I became a more serious believer, a more serious Christian when I was in college. And so that experience for me was so positive and transformative that I've always just kind of kept in touch and was still involved up to this day. So anyway, I'm happy to be here in this podcast and talk about the Word of God and about the spiritual things in the Word.

Ayo: It's wonderful.

Pablo: So you mentioned in college there was kind of a, you became more of a serious believer, but had you known the Lord your whole life? Were you born in a believing family or in an environment that...

Jim: I think my first contact was around when I was 12 years old. Back in the Philippines, I had a classmate who gave me one of those small Gideon New Testaments. And anyway, yeah. And I was in sixth grade and he read with me, encouraged me to read. And from that, I felt something that was something, I experienced something very positive regarding the word, you know? And so after that, he invited me to his Christian group. And so we had fellowship and I was baptized. And so that was very positive. But eventually going to high school, I somewhat lost interest. And so kind of got away from that a little bit, you know. So it wasn't until I started college where I again had the kind of seeking, you know, to kind of pursue that once again. Yeah.

Pablo: Wow. That's tremendous.

Ayo: And go ahead. Did you grow up in a Christian household?

Jim: No, my parents were Buddhists. And so, no, we weren't Christian at all. Nominal Buddhists. Anyway, it's kind of a strange term, but they weren't that serious, you know, but during holidays or, you know, just customarily, you know, if you want to consult with a fortune teller and then they would go to the temple and, you know, give some offering. And so, but they weren't that serious, you know, and so when I was exposed to Christianity, they didn't really object. They just thought, yeah, well, you know, I remember my mom saying, well, you know, all religions teach people to be good. So that's fine, you know. So yeah, I was very thankful for that. I had friends or Christian friends that, you know, also from traditional Chinese families with a strong Buddhist background. And they received definitely some amount of opposition, persecution because of their faith, you know, but thankfully that didn't happen to me. So I, as a 12-year-old, I was able to touch it in a very simple way that was all positive here. Wow. And so yeah, I see. I'm very thankful for that.

Pablo: I'm still thinking about that Gideon Bible that you got.

Jim: Yeah.

Pablo: So, you know, to me, it's impressive that a lot of the way that the Lord reaches people is through the Word, right? It's through the Bible. So did you keep that Gideon Bible for a while? Did you read it a lot? And anyways, I just love how the Word is the beginning, you know, receiving.

Jim: Yeah. I remember during that time, I mean, we didn't have phones, you know, to distract us. And so, yeah, a lot of my pastime with this friend was basically just to read the word and we were in a kind of a more preserved time maybe. And so, and you know, there's something about the word that's very much alive, right?

Pablo: Right. Absolutely.

Jim: And so this friend of mine, he gave me that Bible, but he also shared the gospel to a lot of other classmates to where there were a few of us, you know, we were just in the word, supplied by reading the New Testament. And we would ask each other, you know, what different verses mean. And we were wanting to share the gospel with our teacher. Wow, and so whenever we had a paper to turn in we would always share something about the gospel. At one point our teacher said, I know a lot of you are Christians, but can you write about something else? Wow, so anyway, just in that very simple environment you could really tell what a positive effect the word of God had, you know, and what a testimony it was to people that were around us. Wow. So, yeah. So that experience, even though I somewhat backslid or strayed away in high school, that always stayed with me. And that was what made me, you know, seek it again, you know, when I started college. Yeah. Wow.

Ayo: Yeah. I'm just imagining a scene of sixth graders reading the Bible.

Pablo: That's kind of crazy to even think about and speaking to the teacher. Yes. Every time. Yeah.

Ayo: Is there any, is there, we have a lot of other things to speak about, but I kind of want to stick here for a little bit. Was there anything specific, any passage that really was an anchor for you that really captured you? Do you remember?

Jim: Well, you know, there were a lot of things that were very supplying. But, you know, when you start reading the New Testament, you go to the genealogy, right? Whereas, okay, you just kind of plow through it, you know? And then after that, you go to Matthew 5, 6, and 7, where the standards of righteousness are so high, where you're just convicted. I remember just as a 12-year-old, I was like, wow, I am not any of these things. How can I be, you know? But there's something in the word, you know, it not only shines on you and enlightens you, it supplies you. So, you know, we just keep reading. And I remember even that young someone taught me just make the word your prayer. Just pray over the word.

Pablo: Who was that someone?

Jim: I can't remember. It was either that friend who gave me the Bible or I heard it somewhere because it's amazing advice. Pray the word. I mean just make the word your prayer. Yeah, so I was simple so I just did that. So every morning with a friend I would read a chapter from the New Testament and I would just find a couple of verses and I would just pray over them. And then for example, you know, blessed are the pure in heart. Right. And I would just pray, Lord Jesus, make me someone who has a pure heart, something like this. Wow. And I would just spend a couple of minutes to pray over the word. And yeah, I was just happy and supplied and enlivened, you know, just from that experience. So yeah, that was a kind of beginning for me to realize that, you know, there is something that the word is food. Yeah. If we take it the right way, right. If we don't, if we go beyond just trying to understand the text, but if we interact with it in prayer, right, then there's something of the word that's very supplying and nourishing, you know, that it really becomes our food.

Pablo: So that's amazing. Yeah. I was going to ask when did your reading of the word become or translate into a relationship with the Lord, but you just answered it was through that friend suggesting to pray the word. I'm sure you began to do a lot of prayer and the Lord you found the Lord in the word in a personal way that yeah really spoke and for me it was kind of an easy way to pray.

Jim: Actually just because you know you ask someone to pray. Sometimes it's hard to find the words. What should I pray? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, you just go through your wish list once and then whatever else do you do, you know, but using the words of the Bible to pray I felt like that was a really good way for me to just practice a habit of prayer, right? It just yeah, just that really gave some content to the prayer and just allowed me to have a way to communicate. Right. So yeah. Later on, you know, we obviously make more, we have more practice and we get better at it,

Pablo: but

Jim: that was a good beginning for me to just learn to turn the phrases, the words that I read into a simple. That's incredible.

Pablo: And that happened at around the age of 12. Blessed are you, brother. You know, sometimes I'm having to introduce that thought to, you know, college students or different ones that I have to meet with. And you find that not a lot of people are familiar with that concept, that prayer and the word and the word and prayer are supposed to be mixed, you know, but anyways, the fact that you at 12 began to practice this, it's quite a blessing.

Jim: Yeah. And we, you know, we just stumbled over it. And so you just had a little taste, but sometimes you forget. But anyway, I feel like over time you just, to be brought back to that practice, to that life practice, it's always helpful because you read the word and there's so many things that are hard to understand and so many things that are mysterious. And so many things you just have questions over. And sometimes study is good, but if all we do is study, then sometimes we touch the word, but we don't get nourished. But when we pray over the word, you know, then that living contact with the Lord through the prayer, I feel like is what makes the word our food. Yeah.

Pablo: Right. It's really good. Yeah.

Ayo: And I just love that testimony because there's a concept that young people might have that I'm too young to have a meaningful, real relationship with the Lord. And what, sixth grade. Yeah. And just praying the word back to the Lord.

Jim: Yeah.

Ayo: Reading the word, just getting nourished by that. That shows like, it doesn't matter how young you are. Just be open to the Lord.

Jim: You're right. But you know, nowadays I have the same struggle as everyone else. That's right. Yeah. It's like, oh, it's time to read the Bible. Let's see what's on my phone. You know? And so it's always like, you know, I'm glad I was introduced to it when I was young. Yeah. You know, I have the same struggle as everybody else, you know, where. Right. Yeah. Okay. Now let me actually read my Bible and let me actually pray. And sometimes we don't always get there.

Pablo: That's right.

Jim: But whenever we do, then we feel like it's very uplifting.

Pablo: Yes. Especially today with so many things that can impact our reading of the Bible, you know, notifications, thoughts, we all have busy minds, active minds, and you're just reading and sometimes you get maybe too concerned about understanding what you're reading, but I like what you're saying that sometimes we shouldn't be discouraged if we don't understand something. You just, the main purpose is to get nourishment and to get food out of the Bible and to learn that early on in your Christian life is just a huge blessing. It's just tremendous. Well, today we have a kind of a, I mean, this is great to talk about your testimony, Jim, but we have a topic we wanted to cover, which is the church. It's a big topic that probably you know too large to do in one episode but we'll give it a shot. Yeah, and yeah, anyways, I don't know if you wanted to read the definition of church for us. Yeah, put it into context. I know there's a lot of definitions and maybe angles.

Ayo: You can look at the church but just to kind of kick start us yeah definitely if you're a Christian you have some kind of concept of the church. Yeah, you know it's like of course I know what the church is. It's the church, right, you know. And I thought it'd be good if you just read the definition of the church in Merriam-Webster. The church is a building for public and especially Christian worship. And that's the first definition. The second definition is that it's the clergy or officialdom of a religious body. And some synonyms are a denomination, a congregation. So these definitions are kind of outward. There are things that people can recognize. But there is this thought that Pablo brought up while we were talking about this privately that I think blows all these definitions out.

Pablo: I'm sure Jim has a lot to say about this too. We'll get to that. I guess I'll just put it in this context that these definitions are really interesting to think about because you know we have to match them with what the Bible says, right. But what I was thinking is that the word church doesn't come up till in the New Testament, right, at the very beginning of the New Testament you have the word church introduced in Matthew 16. But does that mean that the whole Bible, the previous part of the Bible, it's not about the church? So we, you know, we were having a conversation with Ayo and we're realizing that the church is actually very inclusive of the whole Bible, like the thought of the church, it is not just a New Testament thought, but it kind of, the Bible leads up to that moment. And, you know, we were considering, and I would like to ask you, Jim, like the Old Testament is, you know, in your reading of the word, you know, the Old Testament, it doesn't mention the church explicitly, but there is definitely something that points to it. And one way you can say it is that it points to Christ. The Old Testament really points to the coming of the Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ. And, you know, He is the one who introduces a church. So we just want to highlight a little bit why that order, why first you have Christ, a whole, you know, the Old Testament presenting and prophesying and leading up to the coming of Christ. And then you have the church introduced and how those two come together. Why is it that Christ is revealed first and then you have the church revealed by Christ. So, anyways, and I think this ties to a person's experience because I think we don't all immediately know what the church is. Like no believer, you know, like when you were 12 and you got the Bible, you know, and you began to pray, I don't think you knew like what the church was, but you had a little bit of understanding of who the Lord was maybe. And then eventually as a progressive revelation. So is that something that matches your testimony and your experience, Jim, about this kind of order of seeing Christ and then seeing something of the church and kind of...

Jim: Yeah, I think so. I think, you know, it's kind of like what you said, right? This thought was always in the New Testament and really the entire Bible, right? Like when God created man and He created man, and He wanted Adam to be, you know, the beginning of the created race. So, right, there was, you know, God desired to have a corporate man, right? In Genesis 1:26, the Lord said, let us make man in our image after our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air. So the thought was always that there was Adam, but he would be the source or the beginning of the created race. Right. And then later on you have Abraham and he was the father of the called race. So, you know, these two people, they weren't meant to just simply worship God as individuals. Right. They were a beginning of a larger group.

Pablo: Right. That's right.

Jim: And so you have Adam as the beginning of the created race and then you have Abraham as the beginning of the called race, right? And then in the New Testament you have the church, right, which is the believers composed of both Jews and Gentiles, right? And so there's always this thought I think in the Bible even though church is a New Testament thought there's always a thought in the whole Bible that God wants to be with His corporate people, right? He's good. And so I think this is something of God's design and this is something that the Lord put in us. Yes, that when we believe in Him there's something in us that you know, I need to be part of something, right? It's not just me. I need to be part of something, right. And certainly when I came to the Lord, I thought yes, I want to come back to the Lord but I need to find His people, right? So I think it's amazing. There's something in every believer that's put there by the Lord that we realize to know the Lord, to know God, I need to be with others who have that same aspiration, right?

Pablo: That's really good. Yeah.

Jim: And so that was certainly my experience and it matches I think yeah what you mentioned in Matthew 16, right, where Peter had a revelation of the Lord Jesus being the Christ, the Son of the living God. And then the Lord told Peter, blessed are you, right? You didn't just come up with this. Right, My Father revealed this to you.

Pablo: That's right.

Jim: And then He changed his name and He said, upon this rock, I will build My church. So immediately after Peter had this stupendous revelation of who Jesus was as the Christ, Christ pointed him to the church. I was thinking of this illustration, you know, the church is the bride of Christ. So when I first meet Ayo, it's very natural. I just say, oh, Ayo, I'm Jim, and this is my wife, Michelle.

Pablo: That's right.

Jim: If you just meet me and not Michelle, you really just see half our story, half the story, right? And so this is like the Lord. Okay, you see Me?

Pablo: Yeah.

Jim: This is My wife. This is My bride. Right? The church, right?

Pablo: That's exactly right.

Jim: And so we just, I don't know, I just felt like, wow, this, it's really a kind of a revelation in two parts, right? We need to see the Savior and we need to see the church as bride.

Pablo: That's right.

Jim: It's unnatural if I only have a relationship with Ayo for years and years, and I don't know Tami.

Pablo: Yeah, he's right.

Jim: Never met her. I just, I like Ayo. Oh, Ayo, he's such a great guy. Man. Yeah, Tami, I don't really care for her. Right. You only know half of Ayo. Yeah. Right. Yeah. If I don't know her or if I don't like her, if I talk bad about her, you know, that's a dishonor.

Pablo: That's right. To Ayo, right? That's right. Right.

Jim: And, but sometimes we don't always think of it that way. And so sometimes we can be a little loose, right? I think with our consideration about the church. Sometimes you complain, sometimes we're unhappy, we criticize other members, right? Yeah, right, but you know if I criticize Tami I certainly can't do it in front of Ayo. It's a dishonor yeah to Ayo for me to do that absolutely but a lot of times because we don't have such a high view of the church sometimes we fall and we don't realize this. You know this is the wife of Christ, that's right, of Christ. You better honor her anyway.

Pablo: And in that example, it's probably, it might be worse for you to say something bad about his wife than him. You know, you say something bad about him. You might be okay with that, but someone says something bad about your wife that you feel differently. And I think it's similar with Christ and the church, you know, a moment you touch the church, you're touching His heart. You're touching what's in His heart. And anyways.

Ayo: So what about you?

Jim: Do y'all have similar, I don't know, maybe an experience of, you know, meeting the Lord and then meeting the church? Was there some experience that you had that kind of highlighted that for you?

Pablo: Yeah, I can kind of speak to that.

Ayo: So just like you, Be a Longhorn. Oh, okay. And what started there changed my life. You know, what starts there changes the world.

Pablo: And I feel left out here.

Ayo: So I grew up with a very individualistic thought of the Christian life. It was hard for me to get along with people that I didn't feel like I wanted to be around. But it was reading through Exodus that really changed my perspective. Like there's a you can read Exodus and see it as a small picture of the entirety of the Christian life. Cause I'm like, wow, the Passover lamb, you know, you strike the blood. I mean, you strike the lamb, kill the lamb. You put the blood on the doorpost and Jehovah passes over you. That's a picture of our redemption through the blood of Christ. And then you eat the lamb. And that's Christ as your strength to leave the world. And then this is what happens to the individual Christian. And then on your way out of Egypt, there is the baptism waters. 1 Corinthians lets us know that the opening of the Red Sea was a baptism. And that's like, okay, we get saved and we get baptized. Okay, cool. And now you're baptized out of Egypt and that's out of the world, out of the grip of Satan. Now you're in the wilderness and you have the manna, you have the bitter waters that were turned sweet by the tree, you have the rock that was following the children of Israel as their supply, giving water. These are all examples of the Lord supplying us, being nourishing to us. And that's natural for the Christian life. And I'm like, okay, this is great. This is what I'm experiencing. But then at the end of all of that, Jehovah is like, okay, this group of people are going to build something, build a building for Me. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, okay, He saves us, He nourishes us, but then, and that's all for us. But then we get to a point where He's like, okay, now you're going to do something for Me. I'm going to build this tabernacle to Me so that I can dwell among you. And that we can have, you know, in the tabernacle was this Shekinah glory. So you could get face to face with the Lord. And that changed something for me because I was like, man, like, you know, this building among this people and God dwelling with His people, that that's the church, like this body, it's this group of people to God. And this is the house of God. And that was a paradigm shift for me to enter into this, the church, which is even a more advanced version of the, you know, it's the dwelling place to God and it's with His people. But I kind of went off there, but no, that's good. Yeah. That actually really changed things for me to not be so individual, but understand that what the Lord wants is something corporate.

Pablo: Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, that's really good. You know, something that became pretty clear to me at one point in my Christian life is that, you know, I was pursuing the Lord and I was seeking the Lord in my life. And then as you do that, you realize just like getting to know any person, right? Every person has something they love, something they might not tell you right away. You know, like you might not know what someone really likes for a hobby or what they even do. You know, sometimes some people's jobs are mysterious. When you get to know someone you find out oh like that's what really is in their heart, that's what they really want to do. So in my experience I was kind of pursuing the Lord. I was getting to know the Lord in the word and in the context of being with others but something became really clear which is that the church is His like. I just realized there's something He really wants and you know I was thinking about this verse in Acts. It says He purchased the church with His own blood, you know. The church is His body and that really became. Anyways, I just realized like the Lord was just kind of unveiling something like yeah, you know, you love Me, you know I shepherded you kind of like you're saying you know all these experiences that the children of Israel went through. It's kind of like the Lord is kind of bringing them along, you know, to the wilderness. But it's kind of them and God. But then at one point, you know, you get to the tabernacle and it's like build Me a tabernacle, you know, so at one point with me it was like yeah you love Me.

Jim: This is what I love like.

Pablo: This is what I died for. This is what I'm all about. You know you're all about Me but let me tell you what I'm all about. You know if you want to really love Me you need to love what I love. And I think at that point I just realized that's what's on. I love the Lord and that's what's on His heart. So if I want to keep following Him I better love what He loves. You know I really need to love what He loves and I think little by little that became you know, a little more of my life, you know, you realize I need to be in a certain context with, like you're saying with other believers, which I like what you said, Jim, that every believer has a desire to be, I would even, even non-believers have a desire to be part of a group, you know, you know, we're part of teams, we're part of like, you know, things, you know, with friend groups, sports teams, and there's a desire for community in all of us. And I think that's just a match of what God has put in us, you know, and what God has in His heart. Anyways, that's kind of a little bit of what happened to me. I just realized God has something and I better love what He wants, which is the church, right?

Jim: Yeah. Yeah. And I think for me too, over time, I feel like there's, you know, as I go on with the Lord, I feel like this thing of what you all mentioned has become more, for me at least, become more and more clear that the church is something that's tied to God's purpose. This is something deep in His heart, right? When you're talking, Pablo, it reminded me of this verse in Ephesians 5, right? About Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her. Of course, there's verses that said, you know, He loved me and gave Himself up for me. That's right. But in Ephesians 5, He loved the church. He gave Himself up for her. Kind of like that verse in Acts 20 where He purchased the church with His own blood. And so I feel like as I go on, and like what you said, a lot of times we come to the Lord because we need something. We need forgiveness, we need redemption, we need salvation, we need food. But then eventually the Lord brings us, okay, you know, you've had your needs met, now you need to realize My need, My need for a dwelling place. And so I feel like as we go on, as I go on in the Christian life, for me, at least one thing that becomes clearer is this matter of the church, God's purpose. So to me, it makes sense in Matthew 16, okay, you see Christ, then you see the church, right? You can say Christ, you know. He is the expression, the definition of God.

Pablo: Right.

Jim: And so when you see Christ, you see God. Right. But when you see the church, you see God's purpose. Right. And so a lot of times as believers, we talk about God's purpose for me. Right. What's God's will for me? What's God's purpose for me? And I don't know if we always put that in a larger context and God's purpose, right? Sometimes we think about what's my purpose, but we don't consider ourselves in the context of what God's purpose, right? Sometimes we pray or we ask the Lord, should I be, you know, should I be an engineer or should I be a pharmacist? Should I live in Austin or should I live somewhere else, right? But if we only seek the Lord in those ways, right, and we don't give due consideration to the church as God's purpose, then it's almost like we're lost in something that's not really His focus. You know what I'm saying? I don't know if that makes sense or not. If I love my wife, I give her flowers at our anniversary. I text her heart emojis, you know, I don't know. Like, I do these things for her, but then I neglect our family. She would say, this doesn't really make sense. You love me, you should love what I love. Yeah, right. You love me, you should know my heart is set on our family. Yeah, right. And so anyway, I feel like, yeah, as we go on and we seek the Lord in all aspects of our lives more and more, for me at least, it's a kind of seeing more clearly my life within the larger context of God's purpose.

Pablo: As you're speaking that example, I'm just thinking, you know, this about you and your wife and you, you know, loving someone, knowing what they care about, you know, like that's a different kind of loving than just loving aimlessly, you know. You just realize God is a person. God just like you love something I love and you know for me to love you the love is gonna be different if I know what you care about. You know in the same way God. God is a God who loves something. You know He cares about something and sometimes we love Him without knowing what He cares about. You know it's kind of a love that's kind of blind maybe, you know, but when you know someone cares about like, you know, your wife cares about her family. So you better care for the family if you want to care about her, you know, same thing with God. You want to love Him in the context of what He loves, you know? So just get to know God in that level. I guess like a person, that's what He cares about. And actually we, our life gets full of meaning when we get into that, what God loves, you know, loving what God loves makes us really happy.

Ayo: You know? Yeah. You definitely can feel that, you know, that when you're in the things of God, you can tell He's happy, you're happy and dwell. And like internally, you just feel He's happy about this.

Pablo: Yeah. Yeah.

Ayo: And I'm pretty sure we all have experiences. It's good. It's like there's moments where we're just in the church and we're just like, man, this is great. I had one of those moments recently and it was just kind of it's kind of funny. So on Mondays, I have high schoolers come to my place and we just, we sing some songs and we read the Bible. And I was just sitting there, we went through the book of Romans and we got to Romans 16 and we're just reading off the names. And like, my brother's actually in that meeting, like, there's a lot of names in Romans 16. And I'm like, yeah. And the fact that Paul could call each person out and he put his relationship with them. Like, greet this sister. She was like a mother to me. Greet this person. They were in the work with me. You can feel the affection that Paul had there. And my brother was like, why are there so many names? And we just went back to the earlier chapters and I was like, each one of these people was a sinner that became a son of God. That's what these preceding chapters were about. And then they were built into the body of Christ, and now it's being expressed as the church. And I don't know, they left, but I just sat there and I was like, man, this is my life. I'm enjoying the church with young people reading the Bible. Like, this is what I was made for, and this is what God loves, and I am deeply satisfied. I was there washing the dishes. It's just like, goodness, I carry it. This is so funny. I'm getting this much supply out of reading the Bible with 13-year-olds. One is sleeping. One is looking for dessert, but one is really asking the question. And then here's another one that's helping him answer the question. And it's like, we're reading the Bible and we're enjoying the Lord together. Wow. You just, yeah.

Jim: That's amazing. Yeah. As you were talking I was reminded of this one verse right in John 15 where the Lord says, you know these things I say to you that My joy may be in you, right? My joy may be in you, right? There is a deep abiding joy in taking care of branches in the vine and of bearing fruit. And, you know, I remember, you know, at one point in my working life as a pharmacist, it's like, man, you know, I'm in healthcare. I want to do, you know, satisfying, meaningful work. And I just thought, man, I don't know if this is it, you know, but many times in my church experience, kind of like Ayo, I just had this feeling, you know, you have people younger than you, you help them touch the Lord. You help them know the Lord. You just open your home to be with them. And afterwards you just had this deep abiding joy from the Lord.

Pablo: And that's really good.

Jim: And like what you both are saying, it's like when you're in the center of what He loves, then there's just a satisfaction there and a contentment there that you can't find anywhere else. That's right. Yeah. Yeah.

Pablo: It's amazing. So, you know, I just love that story of the high schoolers, you know, that experience can happen, but you alone in your house, you know? You can never have that realization, that deep joy, the Lord's joy becoming your joy. That only happens in the context of being with the other believers. And to be in the church, you don't have to have just a few in your house. That's an expression of the church. Actually, I love that it's in your house because in your house is the best. Anyways, we're all married. Sometimes when people are coming over to your house and anything going on between you and your wife, as soon as they arrive, you forget what happened. You're better for you know and then when they leave you're like what were we fighting about? You know like so the church really saves us in a sense you know it just it's a further salvation to us. You know like by yourself you and Christ you and the Lord it goes to a certain degree but when you include the believers in your life in your daily life there's a deeper salvation. That's right and to me that's why the Lord it's not just something the Lord loves. We start loving and we realize this saves me. Like, I need this in my life. If I don't have this in my life, you know, well, me, you know, me, myself and I. And so anyways, to me, that's what the church is to us, right? Yes. Our salvation.

Jim: Yeah. I was thinking of this one verse recently in Matthew 18, right? Where the Lord says, where there are two or three gathered into My name, there I am in their midst, right?

Pablo: Right.

Jim: And I just love that verse because it just shows like our gatherings in the church, our gatherings with others. A lot of times it's just greater than the sum of its parts, right? You have two or you have three and then the Lord adds Himself in there.

Pablo: Right.

Jim: And then now you have something there that's more than just two or three. Yeah, that's right. That's right. And anyway, I just yeah, I'm just like you said a lot of times I think there's somewhere close to that verse. Well, I don't know better.

Pablo: Look it up right now. We got bigger Bibles here.

Jim: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I got the electronic version. Great, you go Matthew 18 right for where there are two or three gathered into My name there am I in their midst. And then verse 21 says and Peter came and said to Him, Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him up to seven times. And Jesus said to him, I do not say to you up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Pablo: Right.

Jim: Anyway, what you said, Pablo, just reminded me of this. You know, Peter was there just not happy with something. Right. It's like the Lord said, how long should I put up with this brother? How long should I forgive him? Wow. Right. It's kind of like you said, sometimes, you know, you and your wife, you have something going on. And then somehow the Lord's presence is there when there are two or three gathered.

Pablo: Yeah, that's right.

Jim: Like you're just like, there's this problem. But then the Lord comes and it's like, yes, we're all failures. We all offend each other. We have trouble forgiving. And like the Lord just comes into our midst in the middle of the two and three, and we're just blessed, right? We're just supplied, encouraged, just by the presence of the Lord in the midst of our gathering.

Pablo: And it's easier to forgive.

Jim: And it's easier to forgive, yeah. Right? Yeah, the Lord is there, we can forgive.

Pablo: Yeah.

Jim: Seventy times seven. Oh my goodness. That means unlimited forgiveness. Wow. So, yeah, so anyway, like what you brothers are saying, yeah, there's a higher enjoyment. And there's a higher blessing, right? By being in the church, by being with others. So the Lord just visits us, even when we're in a low condition. Yes.

Pablo: You know, you said something, Jim, we're all failures. And that's really true. You know, like to me, there's a moment also of like a light bulb moment where you realize, yeah, the church is wonderful. It's God's heart. But then you realize the church is composed of fallen normal people, you know, and you realize it's not this perfect, at least now, of course the church one day will be perfect and glorious and without a wrinkle and such, but you realize today it's composed by normal people who have, you know, all the traits that we all struggle with. And to me, that's kind of where the rubber meets the road moment where you realize, yeah, like I really need the Lord. You know, like anyways, I had this. I'm just going to share a little experience. I had this roommate in college, you know, when I first was a freshman. And anyways, I was living with some brothers and I didn't get along with this brother. You know, I was there. That was my church life. You know, I was in this house and I was, you know, God arranged for me to be with this brother. And anyways, you realize, yeah, the Lord can call anyone He wants, you know, like you have no choice in who the Lord saves and who we're with. And I was with this brother who was unlike me. You know I was unlike him and we did different everything as different as you can get. And but we were there. And then you realize yeah the Lord is doing something really deep with us when we're in the church. You know like you just learn to enjoy the Lord you learn to pray you learn to and then something happens. You know you just realize to me at least it saved me because you realize the church is not always gonna be you know we're not idealists, you know, it's not gonna be perfect like everyone I love I get along with everybody. But there's something really wonderful when we learn to be fitted together when we just let you know God is doing something so wonderful with all of us that but it takes sometimes some deeper work. So to me that's helpful because you could be discouraged easily if you realize oh like why I don't like this church, you know, I don't like being with these people. But then you realize the Lord is doing something really deep with us that it actually it's about that like that's part of the experience to learn to. So anyways, I don't know if you brothers have some experiences of kind of like realizing that the Lord is doing something like the work of building the church is actually very inward. You know, it's very much touches even who we are. I don't know.

Jim: I think I'm starting to realize more that that's part of the Lord's process salvation with us, right? It's that, like you said, being with a brother that you don't get along with. And I was just reading some verses recently, and it just encouraged me that the early church had this kind of problem too, you know. I think just from Acts 6 or something like that, where they know all the believers, they had all things in common. But then the widows that spoke Greek, they were being overlooked in favor of versus the widows who spoke Hebrew. So already in the church, in the beginning, there was this kind of cultural, I don't know if they intended it or it is unintentional, but in the beginning already there was a little friction due to culture. And then later on in Acts 15 you know the Jewish believers they were some were insisting like okay you Gentile believers you need to keep the law of Moses. So like in the beginning already you could see some strife in the early church that's based on religion and based on culture and this is something yeah this is by design. The Lord didn't say, okay, you Jewish believers, you just be a church here and the Gentile believers be a church here. No, the Lord just kind of threw us all together. Wow. And then when you're thrown together like this, you just realize, Lord Jesus, I need to be saved. Amen. Right? Not only saved from sin, not only saved from the world, but saved from myself, our culture. It just reminds me of that verse in Matthew 16, right? After the Lord told Peter about the church, right? And then He says, if you want to follow Me, you need to deny yourself, right? And I feel like my experience is the more I'm in the church, the more I realize there's something in me that doesn't fit, right? There's something I need to deny who I am. I need to deny myself to fit in this thing called the church. And as believers, this is God's purpose. And I realized, wow, how much the Lord has to work in us and operate in us to produce this thing. I think there's a verse in Ephesians 2 where it talks about we are His masterpiece. This is, I don't know, this is Christ, this is God's masterpiece. That He could bring all these sinners from all these different backgrounds and just build them up together into a corporate entity that expresses Him. Even in Genesis, the world was created in six days. You know, there's a lot of things in nature that I'm just like, wow, that's amazing. But you know what? That's not His masterpiece. The church is His masterpiece. And so I think, you know, yeah, when the Lord comes back, we will just appreciate and marvel all the work that He has done and He has accomplished to make all these selfish sinners fall into the uttermost. So different, so culturally. All of a sudden at the end, it's like, wow, this is God's dwelling place. All the members fitted together. They're not expressing themselves, expressing Christ anyway.

Pablo: That's amazing.

Jim: Really something. Yeah. And yes. Yeah. So today we're in the process.

Pablo: We're in the process.

Ayo: Yeah. There's a verse that I love that's really ministered what you just shared about the denial of self for this church, for the church. That's Romans 14, 15. For because of food, your brother is wounded. You no longer walk according to love. Do not destroy by your food that man for whom Christ died. And it's, I don't know, that verse just ministers to me that this member in the body, this other person that I might have an issue with, this is a person that Christ died for. And this person is a part of God's masterpiece. And He went through like a, He went through a process to even conceive the church. Like if you think of it like God became a man and then lived this human life, crucified, resurrected, ascended. And then, you know, at the end of the Gospels, He breathed the Spirit into the disciples, John 20 and 22. And so He was indwelling them. And then on the day of Pentecost, the Spirit of power comes upon them. So these people that Christ died for, He's now indwelling them and they're also in Him in the Spirit and like what kind of environment is that where Christ is in all and is all and He's filling all and He sees everything. You get that in the church and you can feel that you enjoy that. But like if you're so caught up in yourself you'll just miss the masterpiece that the church is. You won't even get to enjoy it because you're worried about your food.

Jim: You know that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Pablo: Wow. It's really good. I like, yeah. It's by design. Like, this is God's design.

Jim: Yeah.

Pablo: I was thinking of, I think it's Acts 13, 14, where Paul, Silas, and a few brothers are ministering to the Lord, but all those brothers are so different, you know, Greek, Jew, there's some brothers from Africa, you know, there's like, right. There's a brother from Niger. It's just like all these brothers from all these backgrounds, but they're there ministering to the Lord, you know, and that's by design, like the Lord. But it is, it's not like realize, sometimes you marvel that, oh, you know, let's say in this gathering, there's so-and-so from that place, so-and-so from that place. And that's glorious. Okay. But really it's the Christ in them that really is the church, you know? So this matter of like, we denying ourselves is so true, but I think our denying ourselves on the flip side is our gaining of Christ, you know? Right? Like as we deny ourselves, you're probably choosing Christ, right? And then that growth in us then makes us able to be in that, you know, with other brothers, you know, it's not just denying us, but it's the increase of Christ in us that eventually allows us to be with anybody because He's the only one that can fit anywhere, right? So yeah, anyways, growth brothers. Yeah.

Jim: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. There is some dimension to our growth, I think that's maybe many times we don't think about and that is, you know, our growth is commensurate to the amount of building up that we experience. Right. You know, the church is the body of Christ, you know, and so you're the different parts of our body. They don't grow individually, right? You work out like you exercise your muscles they grow in unison, right? That's very weird if like you have a big bicep and everything else is that's right not proportional. That's right. So anyway, I feel like there's something here to where you know when we talk about growth a lot of times we only have a kind of an individualistic view. But you know our growth is there's that verse right about how we are growing into a holy temple in the Lord. That's right. So this matter of growth and building yeah they go side by side. That's right, right. And so that's right. You can't just grow and then not be built up. That's right. The more we grow the more suitable we become for the building.

Pablo: That's right. I like the example of the muscles. Yeah it would be weird. The growth is like it's checked by the body like the body like you know like that's why it's so good to be with others because you know you could be like an emphasis, you know, a one-liner, you just emphasize, you know, you just grow in maybe your gospel preaching or, you know, maybe you, a lot of us have, you know, an inclination or we lean a certain way and but when we're in with other believers, like in any context in our homes or we get we get like tempered and we get kind of our growth just fits in, you know what I mean? Like it is dangerous to just, if I was alone all the time, you know, who knows? Maybe I just be an abnormal member, you know what I mean? So I just like this growth and building, like your growth has to fit in the building. And then the building, you know, checks your growth and then you just and then the body just grows in a really beautiful way. Right.

Jim: That's right.

Pablo: So anyways, I just hope even our listeners, you know, even our listeners realize growth is so key for this whole thing, right? We can't just be passive, hoping to just see the church without growing.

Jim: So anyways. Yeah.

Ayo: And you know, one of the most popular verses in Christianity about growth is 1 Peter 2:2. As newborn babes long for the guileless milk of the word in order that you may grow unto salvation. That was Peter's instruction, but you know, if you go like, what is it? Three verses? He says, you yourselves also as living stones are being built up as a spiritual house into a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. So you see this, you get this illustration of grow, grow, enjoy more Christ, you know? But then it's like Peter's orienting us to see that we're being built up.

Jim: Wow. Amazing.

Ayo: For this dwelling place, for the church, for this temple. And it's like, like you said, what did you say? Our growth is commensurate.

Jim: Commensurate. Yeah.

Pablo: Hey, we need some big words for the podcast.

Ayo: And we might need to like flash a definition.

Jim: That's right. Please.

Ayo: But yeah, our growth, it's tied to our being built into the body.

Pablo: Yeah.

Ayo: It's built into the church. That's right. Yeah.

Pablo: Wow. Jim, could you share a little bit about, you know, you're following the Lord a few more years than us. How have you been able to just live a life, a Christian life, where you keep growing? How has growth been made real in all the stages of life? Sometimes as a single person, you have a certain context, then you get married, then you have kids, but how can we grow daily as believers? What is something that will keep us growing or some experience or some just handles about growth.

Jim: Yeah, I think one thing that was shared with me one time that was very helpful regarding growth, right, is this verse in Colossians chapter 2 where it talks about, I think it's 2:19, about the body growing with the growth of God, right? So I think one thing that's helpful is to define it first is what is growth?

Ayo: Yeah, that's good.

Jim: And so sometimes we think of growth in very outward terms, you know, maybe you serve more or maybe you become more zealous, right? Is that growth? Well, you know, in this verse it talks about how, you know, we can grow with the growth of God, right? Of course, God doesn't grow in Himself. Right. But He grows in us and His growing in us is our spiritual growth. Right. And so, I think that's something that's very helpful is that, you know, we don't measure our growth with outward things, but spiritual growth is the increase of God within us. Right. And so for me, I feel like it's I don't know how easy it is to measure your own growth, you know, like I have a teenage son. He certainly doesn't feel like he's growing. All right, but if you see him a year apart then you would realize oh, yeah, this guy's growing real. So I don't know if that's something that we can measure that you know something week to week that we can it's that obvious from day to day. But I feel like a lot of times, you know, growth is a matter of faith, right? So as long as we eat, as long as we're nourished, as long as we're supplied, then you can just have faith that there's some growth happening in you. And at least for me, this is what, you know, and I know it's hard for everyone, you know, and we all need help and we all have a lot of failures. But, you know, for me, I feel like one thing that's helpful and one thing to keep in mind is just to have some time in the word every day, right?

Pablo: That's good.

Jim: Preferably the morning.

Pablo: Yeah.

Jim: But if your morning just gets ahead of you, then you endeavor sometime during the day to have some time in the word. And not just, you know, to be, but to really have some prayer in the word. And you know, this is something that I try to do, certainly not perfect. And this is something I feel like I'm learning also to, for believers younger than me or like, you know, my kids or even, you know, my wife, we try to have a little time in the word. It's good. And I...

Pablo: Together as a family.

Jim: Yeah. Well, that's wonderful. Yeah, sweet. Yeah, it's really yeah. Anyway, I remember the kids were at a certain age, you know and they would read those Old Testament verses and they all have very funny names. Yeah, you know the chapters would like, you know this person begot this person begot this person and with me as an adult I just try to get through it, you know, just let's just get through it. Let's move on to the stories, you know. But with the kids they had so much fun like saying those names. It was great. They were just laughing and laughing and the next day he said, can we read that chapter again?

Pablo: Other experts at the genealogy, huh? Genealogy experts.

Jim: But anyway, yeah, that's something, one thing that I try to practice. And you brothers still have this problem, but for me as kind of an older Christian, sometimes the temptation is to give advice.

Pablo: It's good. Well, I'll give him advice.

Jim: You know, our younger brothers are, you know, come to me and say, hey, Jim, what do you think about this? And then where the, I was like, oh, I have experience. I know what you should do in this situation. That's right. And I'm learning, you know what, when we do that, we rob them of the chance for God to grow in them, you know? Wow. That's and so, anyway, one thing that I'm trying to practice more. Wow. Is with younger believers, don't give advice.

Pablo: That's really good.

Jim: Right. Pray together. Yeah. Invite the Lord into the situation. Yeah. Right. I've had so many failures, you know, when I'm in healthcare, someone asks me, oh, should I go into pharmacy? And I said, oh, let me tell you about pharmacy. Yeah. And I spent an hour. 90% just my experiences, my knowledge of the field. And then the last 10%, let's pray. And I realized, man, that is kind of lopsided. So anyway, I try to practice now. Well, maybe it should be the other way, right? You have experience, you can't deny you have experience, but allow the Lord room, right? Maybe 10% advice and then 90% prayer. And so, anyway, I feel like, you know, more and more with time and through mistakes, I'm somewhat endeavoring, you know, to grow, we come to the Lord to help others grow, we lead them to the Lord, right? We lead them to the Lord. And in this way, you know, God grows. They grow with the growth of God within them. God grows when we allow Him the room in our hearts, you know, when we invite Him in.

Pablo: Wow.

Jim: And so He is increasing within us and this growth together is what constitutes the church. Yeah. So anyway, that's just a little bit of my experience, but I mean, you know, I'm sure y'all have experiences too, like how, what are some things that, you know, helps you in your Christian life? What are some things that help you in the growth in life.

Ayo: I mean pretty recently my younger brother asked me to read the Bible with him.

Jim: Yeah.

Ayo: Yeah, and it was before his college day started and he was it was during finals week. He needed some, you know, he needed some supply. Yeah, absolutely and I don't know those moments were so sweet like I was in I was at the office at work and it's like 8 a.m. and I'm tired and I can hear the tired tone in his voice, but we're like, let's read the Bible right now. We want to start the day with the Lord. And we were going through Matthew and those ones were just so sweet. I mean, the formula is there, start the day with the Lord, because when you start the day with the Lord, you're set. The middle of the day, you're probably going to be in the Lord, but you're going to go back to what you started the day with. And especially for me to share that kind of fellowship with my blood brother who I'd been praying to the Lord about for a while that when he said, hey, I want to read the Bible. I looked up at the Lord and I was like, goodness, the sky was like, what? But yeah, just moments like that reading the word with my brother, even getting to pray with him. I could tell together we were growing. That was so wonderful.

Jim: Wow. Wonderful. I by no means have a good batting average. Maybe it's like, yeah. 50% probably we're doing well 50% if we read the word it's better than zero, right? So we just try and then we fail and we fail over and over and we just come back and we just try again, you know but to the extent that we do it I just feel like it's so healthy. It's so healthy, right. And yeah, well our family see us fail the most. That's good. I've only seen the perfect version of Ayo.

Pablo: I thought it was perfect.

Jim: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And man, and I see the perfect version of Pablo, right? Or the real me is my kids. They see the worst of me. My wife, they see the worst of me. But it's good to just have some contact in the word.

Pablo: Yes.

Jim: And realize we're all fallen. We're all inadequate. We're all sinful. We're all terrible. But the salvation is with the Lord, right? There's no other way. That's right. We can't just fix ourselves.

Pablo: Yes.

Jim: But having a kind of a healthy deposit of the word, you know, helps us turn to Him.

Pablo: Yeah.

Jim: Strengthens us to apologize to one another. Oh, yeah, right. Strengthens us to turn, to help each other turn to Him.

Pablo: Yeah. Brothers, going back to this thought that Jim, you brought up about that, you know, the church is the genuine church is the growth of God, right? Like the growth of God is really what makes up the church, nothing else. Right? So, but there's things that are kind of like, it's not God growing in us, but it kind of looks like a substitute of God, you know, could we talk about a little bit in our experience when, you know, you think you're growing, but it's actually not, it's not the genuine growth of God, you know? Like one thing is just like spirituality you know sometimes you think like oh I'm growing but is that the genuine growth of God you know like sometimes it's just knowledge or it's just you know spirituality or you know there's the enemy loves to kind of like give substitutes for what the genuine growth of God is. So I don't know if I think might be helpful even for the listeners to realize what not to get introspective, but maybe just to talk about what are some things that maybe in our experience have been, we caught ourselves or we realize, man, I need to change, you know, that's not God growing in me or that's, I don't know if you brothers gonna catch my vibe here.

Ayo: I feel exactly, I know exactly what you're talking about.

Pablo: You know, like, but then that's when, you know, sometimes someone will mention something or just under the light with the Lord, you realize, oh man, that's not the Lord, you know, that's not really the Lord, you know.

Ayo: For the last few months, I've been reading the New Testament and studying it. And for me, I'm going to be very honest. I just didn't want to be ignorant. I wanted to know verses. I wanted to know how to chain verses. I wanted to know how to speak the truth, know where to find it. If there was a question that came up in a group I was in, I wanted to be able to somehow answer it. So I'd been reading the New Testament and I was just, you know, honestly, I was just like, I was like, I gotta read this. I gotta know this. I just have to know this. I can't go on in my life not getting into this. So those long reading sessions, they started becoming religious and routine and they started to be dry and it became a chore. And I realized that I was reading, I wasn't really praying anything. Like you said, just reading the word and not praying it back is such a special fellowship you can have with the Lord, praying the word back to Him. I had just been reading. I'd be like, okay, this verse, okay, this is what this word means. This is what this means. This is what it relates to. And I would move on to the next one. And I would have a whole reading session and I hadn't prayed once. And I felt like the Lord touched me one time. He was like, you're just reading this and you're not even, you didn't pray at all. You didn't pray before you began, you didn't pray during, you didn't pray after, you didn't talk to Me. And this book is about Me. Maybe if, you know, you enjoyed Me in this, maybe this verse would stick with you. And when you share it, it's not just dead knowledge, but it's actually your actual enjoyment of Christ. You memorized and you know this verse and you can recite it because you enjoyed it. You know, not because you just put it in a filing cabinet in your brain. And yeah, definitely the seeking of knowledge was a substitute for me. And I'm thankful to the Lord that He called that out. And those tedious reading sessions have become exponentially better. Amen. Yeah. Yeah.

Jim: Yeah. Just kind of thinking about your question, Pablo. Yeah, there are things that can be substitutes and good things. You know, one thing I was thinking about was Peter in his zeal. Sometimes we mistake zeal for growth.

Pablo: Right, that's right.

Jim: And so Peter in his zeal, right, he says, right, the Lord said, okay, one of you.

Pablo: Right.

Jim: And then Peter's like, that's not me. That's right. Not me. Could it possibly be me? Even if all these people deny you, I will never deny you, right? Peter had this kind of zeal, right? And then the Lord allowed him to fail. Peter denied the Lord three times. He allowed him to fail. Probably Peter was very disappointed in himself. Very disappointed. And then in John 21, the Lord recovered him. And the Lord asked Peter, Peter, do you love Me? And then Peter says, yes, I love You. And then the Lord says, feed My sheep, shepherd My sheep. I believe in that instant, Peter had growth because his self-confidence was torn down and he failed. And now he realized he can't be he's not better than anyone else, right? And because he was not higher than others, he can now shepherd His sheep, you know? And so I feel like a lot of times, you know, our genuine growth involves the tearing down, the tearing down of ourselves. But also the genuine growth allows us to supply others with the Christ that we've enjoyed. Yeah. You know, in 1 Peter chapter 2, right? The verse that you brought up, we talked about how you come to Him.

Pablo: Right. Coming to Him as a living stone, right?

Jim: You yourselves also as living stones. And to me, that word is just precious that Christ Himself is a living stone. That means He's the constituent of the building. A lot of times we come to Matthew 16, oh yeah, I will build My church. We just think, oh yeah, that means Christ is building something. And sometimes we imagine, oh yeah, He's building a mansion.

Pablo: Yeah, right.

Jim: You know, somewhere else. Right. But in 1 Peter 2, He's a living stone. That means the constituent of God's building. He Himself is the material, right? For God's building. And then He says, you also as living stones, right? That implies we're men of clay, we're Adamic, right? It implies transformation, right? We are being changed inwardly, right? The old, our fallen, the negative elements of our being are being discharged, but Christ is adding Himself to us as the building material so that we can be living stones, right? To be the same as He is, you know, for God's building as living stones. And so I feel like a lot of times regarding this matter of growth for God's building, there has to be some exposure that allows the negative element in us to be exposed. And then we realize, oh, I need You.

Pablo: Yeah, right.

Jim: Lord Jesus, I am not fit for God's building. Wow. I can't forgive my brother. I can't get along. I need You, right? And so when we are exposed then we are more I don't know, we're more seeking and we're more desperate and we allow Christ to come in, right? As a building constituent, as a building material. And so getting back to your question, I think, yeah, we have a lot of substitutes and we're self-deceived. But when the Lord exposes us, then we realize, oh, my real need. I need the Lord. I need Christ as building material, you know?

Pablo: That's good.

Jim: Yeah. A lot of times what we think is giftedness it's actually a hindrance.

Pablo: That's right.

Jim: It's actually hindrance. Yeah.

Pablo: Your gifts, your ability, your great musician. Right. A great this. Yeah. You're a speaker.

Jim: You're a great speaker.

Pablo: Yeah. But it's just a substitute. That's right.

Jim: It's just a substitute. Yeah. Right.

Ayo: That's yeah.

Pablo: I like that. We all need to come to that moment, Lord. I'm not, I cannot, I just need You, you know, and then that's a genuine growth. So I think if we have that yeah the Lord will have something in us, you know.

Ayo: Amen. One thing we like to do with every one of our guests is speak about something I've been enjoying in the word lately. So, Jim.

Jim: Yeah. Well, one thing that impressed me and also as, you know, kind of a preparation was just reviewing Paul's experience again in Acts chapter 9. Right. To me, it's just impressive how, you know, just like Matthew 16, you see Christ and Christ leads you to the church. Right. Right. I feel like Paul's experience in Acts 9 somewhat just mirrors.

Pablo: Yeah, absolutely.

Jim: Yeah. Like he was on the road to Damascus. He got knocked down. Right. And then he said, who are You Lord? Who are You Lord? And then the Lord says, I am Jesus whom you persecute. Right. And then he asked, what should I do?

Pablo: What should I do now?

Jim: That's right. And then the Lord says, someone else will tell you that. That's paraphrasing. Yeah. Probably Paul's like, well, just tell me I'm here. You're here. Just tell me that. Right. But the Lord by design, you know, I'll answer the first question, but I won't answer the second question. Someone else will answer the second question. And so he had to wait for Ananias to come. Right. And then Ananias told him, okay, well, you now you have to be baptized. Right. And there later on that chapter he was preaching and then he was persecuted and he had to be lowered through a wall in a basket.

Pablo: Yeah, right.

Jim: And to me, I just love the story of Paul because he was and he was going to be useful. He's going to write 14 epistles. This most useful person he had to learn early on like he you need to know Christ, but you also need to know the church.

Pablo: Yeah.

Jim: I'll speak to you directly but the speaking will also come through the church, right? And you need to know early on that you need others. I think as he was being lowered in that basket, I don't think you can escape the feeling like, I need others, Lord Jesus. He's that brother that's gonna drop me, you know? He was in a desperate situation. Peter had a miraculous deliverance. Angel came and delivered him. Paul didn't. You just had to sit there in that basket being lowered, hoping that the brother on the other end of the basket doesn't drop you, you know? I don't think at that moment, I don't think it was very theoretical to Paul. I think at that moment he realized, wow, I really need the others. I really need the church. And that's amazing. And so anyway, I just feel like as believers, we all have, we all need these kinds of experiences, right? Where we realize, okay, I need the Lord and the Lord is rich. But I also need others. And I think we talk about a lot of times we don't get along. We have friction, right? You have roommates, you don't get along. We all have those experiences, right? But the Lord has to save us, enlighten us, deliver us so that eventually we would know that we need others. That's right. The church, we need the other members.

Ayo: That's wonderful.

Jim: Wow. One of my earliest experiences was with a brother who was my peer. And I was a college student. We were both 19 years old. And inwardly, I always well, anyway, I was jealous of him. He was, you know, good speaker, funny, very engaging. And I always felt a little intimidated, you know, a little bit in rivalry with him. And so and then later on we had a prayer time. I didn't even choose it. It was so funny. I may have avoided him a little bit, but eventually he approached me and he's like, let's pray about this, you know? And so we prayed together. And anyway, I just remember after that first prayer time, my feeling just completely switched. And then I just had such a sweet feeling with this brother. And anyway that experience always stayed with me. Like the Lord really is good. Yeah. All your relationships need to have this turn. Need to have this turn. That's good. Where you're not just relating to others according to your natural man, according to your flesh, but you have a relationship in the spirit. That's good. And the relationship of prayer. So anyway, I just feel like, you know, for our listeners, for myself, I need more experiences of this, right? Experiences, not just of the Lord Himself personally, but of the church corporately. And our Christian experience is enriched the more we have a spiritual relationship with the Lord and the more we have a spiritual relationship with others. That's wonderful.

Pablo: Thank you, Jim. That was, I feel the cherry on top of the whole podcast. I feel that those two questions should be in all of us. Who are You, Lord Christ? What shall I do now in the church? And as we, you know, go through that in our own life, I think, yeah, we'll be, like you said, we need that experience. We need that order of experience. Thank you so much for sharing that. I think it's been great having you.

Jim: Yeah. Thank you.

Pablo: Maybe we'll have you again sometime.

Jim: Yeah. Amen. Great. Amen.

Pablo: Thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to hit that like button, subscribe and leave us a comment below. We love chatting with you guys.

Ayo: We've got so much more content and powerful testimonies coming your way. So follow us on our socials and until next time, stay safe. Keep speaking the words of this life.

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