Hi, welcome to Words of This Life podcast. My name is Pablo and here we share real and impactful Christian stories from believers who love the Lord and his word. Through these testimonies, we want to showcase the virtues of the one who's called us out of darkness into his marvelous light. Virtues that are at work in everyday people, shaping their character, guiding their actions, and shining forth his life into the world. We're so happy you're here with us for this episode and let's get right into it. Hey guys, welcome back to the Words of This Life podcast. My name is Io and I'm here with my co-host Pablo and we have two special guests with us today. That's right. Uh David and Ree. Excited to be here. Great. Thank you for making the time to be here. Yeah, sure. This is going to be a fun episode. I I can already feel it. Yeah. So, uh today we're going to talk about uh knowing God and knowing God's will. Um, and we're just going to dive into David and Arisa's testimony and just glean the experiences that you guys have had and we'll see where the conversation goes. But I think it's always appropriate to just start from the beginning. Uh, how did you come to know the Lord? What kind even what kind of household did you grow up in? And, uh, when did you receive the Lord and when did he become real to you? So, cool. Yeah, I'll start. Uh I grew up my my father uh went to church. Um and I uh went with him. This was really a one of the closest experiences I had with my dad. Uh it was something that you only he and I shared. Then my my mom um didn't go to church. So uh this was really a time that uh I could get to know him. And uh so a lot of my association with church was was just with my dad was just this is an activity we do together. And and that was until I was about 11 or and I I began to realize that uh through my dad speaking to me that that this was uh a relationship that he didn't go to church because that was a thing that he did. He went to church to uh to know God in a deeper way and to know him in the other believers that he that we went to church with. Uh my dad I think he recognized that a lot of my pursuit towards you know going to church with him you know doing all doing all these things with him was based on my my love for him and and he was always very careful to not I would say take advantage of that to so when when I asked him what it meant to be saved he told me of But he was very careful not to pressure me in any way cuz I think he knew that if he told me that I should do this, I would do it for him. Sure. But not for the Lord. Um and and eventually I did feel that I needed that there was something that I I needed something. Uh I needed a savior. And uh the same was true of my baptism when I was I was baptized about a year later and you know uh a number of of of other believers had been baptized at at church and it was kind of going around and I was driving back from church one day and I said, "Dad, I think I should be baptized." And he said, "Okay." Asked me why. And I I said, "You know, I I watched the people get baptized this week and it was really powerful and I feel like I I need something like that." Um and he he said, "Okay." Okay. And then he he didn't mention it again. And then the next week I same thing drive back I said I I want to be baptized. He said okay I haven't brought it up because I don't want to I want it to be your choice. And so anyway that was kind of um that was a real experience of of the Lord for me. Uh and then I I kind of proceeded in Did you say you were 11? Uh yeah. By the time I was baptized I was 12. 12. Yeah. And I proceeded in a pretty good way until I went to college. Um, you know, skip forward a little bit. And, uh, when I got to college, you know, I I wouldn't say I fell away, but I I just let other things uh compete with the Lord for my time, for my interest. uh you know I would still go to go to church meetings but I would also you know I had a lot of friends who were very much not meeting um involved in a lot of drinking and things and and uh so I I I had this kind of I felt that I had a very good balance so to speak of well I'm I'm still doing something towards God but I'm also still doing something uh you know that's for me um you know and this kind of proceeded in this uh parallel structure until I uh I got to go on a trip um when through the university uh we went to Europe. We were you know studying we were studying World War II and European front and we got to spend some time in various you know battlefields and wow we felt very um felt very scholarly it felt very prestigious and um we did a lot of drinking and partying as you might expect also. Uh, and I was on my flight back uh from that trip and I um I was I was actually I was scrolling through pictures on my phone of all the all the very you know like all the cool academic sites you know the you know the the American cemetery there in Normandy and uh you know the there's a a monument to a a the Soviet soldiers the Soviet fallen in Berlin kind of a a monument of of conquering that's still there. It's uh um and well at least was then uh and I uh you know I was also looking at pictures that I had taken when I've been partying and stuff and I you know I I I just had this sense I I had this sense within me that it just it was it was like the bottom fell out. It was like missing a step on on the stairs and you just have this sense what if what if this is it? Like I just went on this great trip, you know, the university paid for it. Yeah. I I had this great time. I was so was with all my intelligent friends. We were doing having so much fun. You know, we're exercising our mind, you know. Uh we would later say our flesh was really getting let loose. It was it was great. But what if I peaked when I was 21? Yeah. And I I just had this I'm you know, we're over the Atlantic. I just had this sense of dread like how am I going to top this experience? Am I just going to be looking back to this for the rest of my life? And I had this realization or I had this sense uh and it was from God in my spirit. I I know now, but at the time I just said, "If there's anything real, it has to be God." Uh if there's if there's anything that's going to be a an ongoing a thoroughgoing an ongoing source of fulfillment and satisfaction, it has to be God. Wow. And so when I got back, I I you know, I I reached out to uh some some of the the people I went to church with. Yeah. And uh you know, I said, "I want God to be real to me." M and uh you know uh what some some one person said you know was very like oh wow I didn't realize you were having all you know this struggle and then another another dear brother said yeah I know that's he says something like I've been praying for this for a long time and so that's why things happen. Yeah, I do believe it. So, uh you know, um I uh completed school. Uh I went uh to a Bible school after that. Uh I just, you know, I didn't certainly didn't go to school with the intention of uh that being my post-graduate plans. But you know, the Lord really stirred in me um to give more of my time to to to give myself to really be uh to to be for him to stud to to study and to dedicate my time to know him. So I did that and uh you know I again I I felt like I kind of hit a plateau kind of like I did after I baptized. I was baptized and it it was very good. It was in a good spot. And I would say the next and really kind of the the last like watershed moment in my life was uh I I went um I went to love. Uh, I was helping that, you know, the church there was doing a a big event for their campus group and I I had gotten a chance to volunteer to go and and cook cook barbecue and we were we had been there, we had cooked all day and and I so I just kind of sat in the back of, you know, one of the like the last session and the the the college students there were speaking about Noah like the the the the weekend time had been about Noah, about knowing, you know, Noah had this vision that God was doing something and, you know, for however many years he he built the ark. There was no evidence of rain. He just had a speaking from God. This is happening. You need to build the ark. And as these, you know, 19, 20, 22 year olds are speaking, I'm God is speaking to me. Are you building an ark or are you are you Are you living in parallel again? Are you just happy to be, you know, happily married, have a nice job, and go to church? Are you happy to have is that enough for you or are you building the ark? Wow. Do you is do you go to church because you've seen that I am doing something or are you going to church because it feels nice for you? And wow. Yeah, it was it was pretty strong. Pretty strong, bro. I was, you know, it's a long drive back from Leach to Austin. And let me tell you, I was uh I was sitting in the back of this pickup truck. I mean, it was in the cab, but I was sitting in the I was sitting in the cab. We were pulling the the barbecue pit back and the brothers in the front are talking big old storm, and I'm just I'm praying and I'm just kind of I don't know what to say to God. I don't know what's But I Anyway, ever since then, the Lord has really taken me to a a different spot. Wow. And I hope I have not reached a plateau that he has to kind of shake me out of again. But Wow. Yeah, that's that's really kind of been my my experience. That's Yeah, that's I I enjoy hearing about the um the two instances where you've mentioned kind of two structures or two parallels, you know, like God sometimes, you know, the Lord calls us and then we we kind of like go to a parallel life away from his calling and then sometimes we merge again and event. Anyways, that's wonderful that the Lord in his mercy kind of called you. Yeah. And just that's really encouraging. Yeah. You know, I mean feel like I've monologued for a while now, but I just what one one thing is, you know, the Lord's calling to me like he's speaking to me in the airplane, speaking to me through those those brothers there in love. Those like the call when he spoke to me there on that airplane didn't lose its impact. What happened was I just kind of started to make like I carved out space for myself. Yeah. So I to me I feel when the Lord calls us uh this needs to remain that front and center. This needs to be you know even we need to consider you know praying that that our the call that the Lord gives to us would remain as the go as the the first fame in our pursuit. We're we're pursuing him not because it's the thing we've done in the past. We're pursuing him because he is calling us right now as he called us at whatever moment that was. Amen. Amen. That's wonderful. Yeah. should go on with Yeah. Um, so my uh I grew up also in a a Christian home of sorts. We were uh consider us we were Christians or Caster goers where Christmas and Easter was when we attended church. Um so first time I hear that. Yeah. Yeah. Uh so we attended pretty regularly when I was really young and then like uh sports and taxes and stuff like that. We just it was like okay Sundays are no longer for uh going to church. It was for football either watching or playing it. Um so anyways I go I always considered myself a Christian but um you know wasn't a regular church goer. Wasn't really taken that seriously. And about freshman year of high school time which I'm sure is the case for a lot of uh freshmen in high school. I started to uh do things some of the things that David was talking about in his college time where you know just started getting into drinking and partying and stuff like that and still would have called myself a Christian the whole time but uh was not the center of my life and I was living as if there was no God essentially um and was really enjoying it. Lots of fun and excitement and uh but yeah uh lack of God at that point but I was um part of a Christian ministry called Young Life. Um, basically everybody at my school was part of it. They were just like kind of the thing to do on Friday nights or Monday nights depending on your age group. Um, it was lots of fun. Like we'd go play sports, sing. Um, there always be a little message at the end. But um, they have the best uh, summer camps in the world in my opinion. So always always planning on going to camp that summer. Seventh grade, eighth grade, nth grade and 10th grade I went to camp. And at this point, I'm probably in the lowest point when it comes to the like just a a life full of the flesh. Um, and uh I'm not feeling guilty at all at this point. But, you know, looking back, I was like, yeah, that was I was in the pits. Um, and I heard the gospel for about the hundth time in my life. But that time, for some reason, God was like calling me out. He hearing about Christ and his dying on the cross. I just had the most stark realization that he like I could like feel his suffering and realize that that was because of how I'm living right now and just felt so much guilt and like oh how like what I'm doing today and what I'm living for today is the reason he had to go through this. Um, and so it it was this experience that night where the the weight of my sin. I felt it for the first time. And then also that night is the first like I felt it all lifted like he paid the price. And I just had a very um emotional night and experience of receiving Christ as my savior for the first time. Um, and knew that something had to change in my life. So, I went to my uh kind of mentor there and said, "Hey, so like what do I do now? Like I know like I I've confessed to him kind of how I've been living. He might have already known all that, but I told him like I know I can't I've got this girlfriend. I probably need to break up with her." Like all that stuff. And he probably told me a lot of things, but the one thing that he told me that stuck with me was you need to uh read the Bible every day, every morning. So, uh, and he started doing that with me, but I I really took it to heart and maybe one or two days since then, since I was 16, that hasn't happened. But basically, since I was 16, I've been able to read the Bible every morning. Uh, that's just testimony. Yeah. And, you know, the Lord just had a ton of mercy on me because it is so easy to uh have that kind of camp high and then go back to your old life two weeks later. But the Lord just had a way of uh kind of replacing my friends. Like I stopped hanging out with them. Like it was like a hard cut off, but he got me other friends who were believers who had similar experiences within a week or two. And so my social life became affiliated with Christ. And um also we really wanted to pursue the Lord together. And what that meant for us was, you know, we instead of hanging out late every night on the weekends and even sometimes the weekdays, it was we're going to go to the coffee shop in the morning when it opens and we're going to read our Bibles or read some Christian books. Um, and I just I was not a reader before then, but uh like I was a cliffotes or whatever we used back then, but um I just fell in love with the Bible and Christian truth and doctrine. And uh not exaggerating to say that we'd pro I'd probably spend 4 hours every morning before school cuz we get there at 5:00 when it opened and then school started at 9:00 just reading stuff. 10th grade. 11th grade. 10th. Yeah. Going into 11th started 11th grade. 11th grader reading 4 hours a day. Yes. It started with less. It was more chatting and then reading together. But um yeah, it's like the most responsible thing I've ever ke Well um anyways I just I just was voracious reader because the truth was fascinating to me like I just this experience just happened to me and I want to learn everything about this Jesus and the Bible and I want to understand it and there's a big looming question right after that too which is like okay what church do I go to like what's there's all these denominations what's the right one I asked my mentor that and he didn't tell me thankfully like at his church or something he was just like ah it's tough question I just had a lot of questions bubbling up as I was trying to understand the Bible. Um, and I think by the end of high school, so all that stuff was great. Uh, but it also by the end of my senior year, I had lots of opinions about what the Bible was about. Was sorry, was most of the Bible reading alone or was it in groups with your parents or with It was a lot of it. Um, I'd be like with the a couple of my friends that I mentioned earlier, but we'd kind of be all reading our own thing. Sometimes we'd be reading the same thing and having more fellowship about it. But I went from like reading like Crazy Love by Francis Chan, some like classic Christian books and like Bonhaofer to then like a systematic theology book and like you know Calvin and stuff like that. Um, and so like I uh it was all great in a sense, but also like I said made me super I was like a hardcore Calvinist by the end of high school and also was a firm believer in the charismatic like movement and gifts of the spirit. Um, you know that they're active today. People are still doing healings and miracles and that kind of stuff. Not so much like Pentecostal but charismatic. The nuance doesn't matter right now. like point is came to college full of uh my own opinions about what the Bible meant. Um and in college I uh met some uh Christians who really helped me to understand uh what the Bible's actually talking about. Uh cuz I was picking out these kind of side doctrines and really honing them in. It's like I meet with my buddies and it's like hey so do you realize like God's will is the only will like you know your will really isn't a factor like I'm just like picking arguments with people with my Calvinism like yeah so so darn but um you know that's not the the central purpose that God is trying the message he's trying to convey in the word. Sure. Yeah. And I got a lot of help to see like what is Christ what is God trying to do today? Um, and that just changed my life. It was like I just had this kind of puzzle pieces of the Bible. I knew some verses that supported my doctrines, but like the full picture. I couldn't quite see it. Um, and I just really got a lot of help to see like these lines in the Bible and like wow what it's talking about and what he's been doing from like see things that kind of like little seeds planted in Genesis and then like they're picked up on throughout and then Christ comes as the fulfillment of these things but they're still being taken all the way to Revelation. And um I just I probably was in more like Bible studies in college than in classes um just cuz it was like fascinating to me. So, off. Um, anyways, I'm probably spending too much time on all this, but uh college was awesome. Uh, there were some it was ups and downs, but that I feel like that's kind of a theme through it. And, um, yeah, I also actually ended up going to a kind of postgrad Bible school um, after working for a bit. Um, almost was going to go to Germany to um, be like a missionary, serve the Lord there. um that didn't end up working out. Um but I fully believe like the Lord wanted me here where I am now and that was only like a few years ago and now I'm married, happily married man and uh newly married man. And uh yeah, I think that's a good like overview I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. One thing that uh you guys both mentioned, and I'm only going to ask you guys this just so the viewer knows, these two uh were podcasters as well at one point. And their their podcast, which is it was called What does the Bible say about that? It's now the Bible podcast. Check it out on Apple. Put a link in the box. Oh gosh. But your guys' podcast really helped me when I was in when I was in a student. Um I I the truth that you guys enjoyed you definitely gave it to like gave it to me through those podcast episodes. But you guys both mentioned that you know fellowship in college um gave you kind of like a truth um some vision of the Bible that has ruled your life. Mhm. And you know, if it's needing having the the bottom taken out from you or being opinionated but also kind of confused. Yeah. Um what happened? You know, what what truths what part of the Bible was like just so striking that you had these 180 changes? Mhm. Yeah. It's uh there are lots of truths that really like jump out when you said that, but I think one specifically is kind of what I was hinging at earlier about like the central focus of the Bible. Like there's lots of interesting doctrines and verses you can glink from the Bible like, you know, is baptism via immersion or sprinkling. There's kind of a hint of sprinkling in Titus, but most of them seem like immersion in Acts and in Matthew and or you know the predestination stuff like Romans 9 is Calvinist favorite chapter and it's most confusing to anyone who's honest I think. But um yeah realizing so one of the truths really stuck out to me was this thought that God's purpose is not to save sinners period like as like that's the central focus just rescuing people from damnation. Um which really kind of was maybe my central truth. I mean, I talked a lot about predestination, but that was like the core of the gospel to me. But realizing that God actually created man with a purpose in mind before he had even sinned. Uh, and that purpose being his desire to be united to man, to have a relationship with man, and to transform him into this creature that's um not just an animal on on the on a low plane, but someone that can be with him for eternity um to give us immortality, as Paul says, and eternal life. and um realizing there's more than just the cross and my repentance from to be saved and like now I should give money to church and be a good person to preach the gospel like oh God has something past the the you know Goltha that he wants to do in me. Um that was really transformative for me of like not just understanding the Bible but direction for my life like oh this is what I need to be doing or I need to be involved in this somehow. Mhm. Yeah. Big truth. Yeah. Yeah. Uh well, you know, the thing that like I mentioned, the thing that really that like that I missed the step on I missed the step on the stairs was uh this question of meaning was and you know that touches on what Reese just said, but you know I one of the things that really touched me was that I had seen people that I had gone to church with who I knew had meaning in their life And I thought I had meaning when I was doing all of these both you know academic I like to emphasize it wasn't all just partying but um you know I was I I thought that I was I thought they had they had meaning because you know their meaning is church and their meaning is God and that's wonderful good for them but my meaning is this other thing and that's fine. And when I suddenly had this realization that there is a there is a an a terminus there's a finite end date of any meaning that is that is derived from the earth I realized that meaning has to be a lasting meaning could only be with God something someone eternal and so you know people what I saw and this is coming back to your question about truth is I I realized kind of retroactively I had I had unconsciously registered these people are touching the reality of some really high and common verses among us you know like Galatians 2:20 and Philippians 1 for to me to live is Christ and my you know my spirit had kind of absorbed even without my conscious recognition that that person that person that I see he's full of meaning Because Christ is his life. His life is not just for Christ. Christ has become his life. And so that's what that's what the purpose of that person's existence is. It's the purpose of my existence. And my meaning is going to be unfulfilled and finite and temporal. And I'll be just be chasing the next high until I accept this is the meaning. And so yeah, the truth that Christ that we were created, that Christ would fill us, he would become our life, he would become how we live, how we interact with one another would be Christ. Yeah. Wow. It's really good, man. Yeah. I I was I wanted to go back to um David in your testimony, the moment in love when you you heard, you know, about Noah from those those young believers there and uh what did you what was the summary kind of message there from from God uh in that moment? What do you think? You mentioned, you know, God speaking to you, are you here for me or are you here for yourself or you here for me? Yeah. How the has God built up on that revelation? Uh has there been more to that revelation that started there? And what what what do you think really God was hinting at there? Yeah, that as well. Yeah. You know, uh well, I mean, so we look at the at Noah and Noah, God says, "Surely I'm going to flood the earth." And uh so build an ark uh so for the preservation of yourself, your family, and life. Uh, and that vision governed how Noah lived. So, everybody else was doing something. I I've often wondered, this might be off topic, but was I mean, was did Noah still farm or like what was he doing for food? I mean, like it does mention I think 120 years I think that was the eat something. Yeah. But, uh, he was building the ark. But, um, yes. So, that was that was the purpose of Noah's life was based on that vision. And that vision, you know, certainly that would save Noah, but it was about s preserving life on the earth, preserving the animals, preserving his family. So, the thing that really spoke to me that God spoke to me. I want to be clear, this wasn't like an audible voice, but it was pretty clear in my spirit. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a that's a Reese level experience. Uh but is are you are you doing church for for yourself? Are you are you going because it makes you feel like uh well this is a thing that good people do and the fact that I do it means I'm a good person. This is uh you know this is a place where I have some community some social interaction and people like to do that. Or are you doing this because I God am doing something. I am I want people who are building the ark. Yeah. I want people who are living according to the vision of what I've said in the Bible that that I want I want a people I want a church that represents me on the earth. So are you just among them? Are you just among the people that are living for that or are you living for that? Wow. Mhm. I don't know if that answers your question, but yeah. Uh, no, that's that's good. I I think maybe I don't know all believers, but most believers have that moment. You know, you you find Christ, but eventually you you find like what is Christ after? Yeah. Like it happened to me, too. I mean, I don't want to this is about you all. I don't want to share too much, but um I was I was in the book of Ephesians and then I just realized after reading it and being in it, this is years ago. I just realized, man, when you kind of like take a peek in God's heart and you just see what's in his heart, it's all the church. Like, I just realized it's it's every time it's the church, right? There's something there. You know, he he reveals himself to you, but when he wants to reveal something else is the church. So, anyways, how about you, Ree? When did that is there a moment I don't know that when like Yeah. We went from Christ to what Christ wants, you know? Yeah. Well, I think um I'll answer that, but I think it related like it's I think more I feel like more believers and this was certainly the case for me and this what all of my friends and I would ask all the time the typical question and you know there's a famous book I forget like a purpose- driven life what's his name uh anyways very famous Christian book Warren yeah Warren yeah many Christians ask what is God's purpose for my life what is God's will for my life what am I supposed to do I supposed to be a doctor? What college do I go to with my question in high school? And uh what you know, it's like am I a missionary or this or that? And the question never really dawned on me until it was kind of presented to me that like what does God want? What is God interested in in doing? Um and really once you figure that out, then it's really it's a lot easier to figure out what do I do now? Like if I figure out God's interested in building a giant ark on the earth, I should go help Noah like the structure of this thing. That's a pretty simple like I can figure out God's will for my life. It's whatever over there. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I'm over there if I'm like he his the will for Noah is the ark. I need to go farm. Like I'm going to be dead, you know? Um so I did have a moment in college, but it was like just a a a whole change in the question I was asking. of like what is God's will for my life to what is God interested in? What is he doing? And the church being kind of I think the the answer there with a lot of nuance and details around that. But yeah, I think one thing that's interesting is that you actually posed that question to me at one point. Really? Yeah. Uh it was it wasn't anyway you just said you most people say what is God's purpose for my life? But then you were like, "Let's rephrase like let's just edit that question. What is God's purpose?" Full stop. Yeah. And I remember that was like a what? Yeah. I've never thought about that, you know. Um but anyway, um so you guys you guys saw something when you were in college and you guys both decided uh you know, seminary, uh Bible school, some kind of like program to give yourselves to the Lord and what he's doing. That that was what the Lord was leading you to do at that point. But then you get to a point where you leave that program and now you're back with a greater sense of independence. uh what did those first years look like uh leaving the program and how did the Lord continue to train you to to hear his voice and know his will and follow where he was leading you you know yeah uh you're right that was a uh you use the word that was a greater sense of independence and that was definitely my experience you know uh uh for myself I um and also Ree actually we both came back to where we'd been before. You know, we both came back to Austin. We'd come from here. Um and so there was definitely, you know, there was a lot of a lot of pre-existing, you know, not necessarily not negative things, but uh things that you you know, relationships and and and people that you don't have the thought like I didn't have the thought that I needed to check with God about. I I know how to interact with this person. I know how to interact with this situation because I've done it before. And uh that kind of that is a it's a real learning. It's a ongoing learning for me that we need to be actively checking with God about everything about how we how we interact with other people. Believe it or not, God, the sovereign one, hasn't a plan for for all of our interactions. And yeah, it's a good thing he's infinite because there's a lot of interaction. But but God has an intention in how we interact with co-workers, with people around us, with our spouses, and we can check with him or we can just try to operate on our own. And anyway, all that to say, uh, that was a big point of learning. I had some I had some failures when I first got back and I I had, you know, I had some existential thoughts about, did I, why did I do this? I spent two years, I gave myself to the Lord and now I'm just as bad as I was before. I'm worse than the Benny thing. Uh and uh but I feel like that time that adjustment from a kind of a structured environment, a specific consecration that I had given myself uh to be under to be for the Lord uh and now in a a to consecrate in a much broader environment uh really in a sense it's easier to consecrate yourselves when you are only have a structure around you. Uh but when you need to when you need to consecrate yourself and no one but you and the Lord are there to check on it, it's it's uh it takes more it takes a deeper realization of what the Lord is doing. So that was something that the Lord kind of worked on me in the first two or so two or three years that I was uh after I came back. Um but yeah. Yeah. And I mentioned this briefly in my uh testimony part, but um I was actually pretty I was planning on going to Germany after I finished actually. Um that was after uh you know the question what does God want me to do? What's over my life is still a legitimate question like building the ark is not as clear as in Noah's day, right? Like where are we going to be doing the building and um in what capacity? So after a lot of, you know, prayer and consideration and then fellowship with different Christians that I really respected both here and in Germany that I'd gotten connected to. It just seemed like that was where the Lord was taking me. Um, and so I just like it was a little kind of a scary thought transition. I I know as much German as anyone who's done Duolingo for six months would know. And um it was just like I don't like it wasn't like I'm excited and thrilled about a foreign adventure. It was like that's where I felt like God wanted me even though it wouldn't be comfortable or nice. Um but back to the thought of like what is God's will for himself once I think you're aligned with that you have a clear like understanding and and controlling vision revelation like this is what it's all about. then God's leading you in the little things where you would be what you would do um are less uh important I suppose or even you know that's right Paul he led Paul to Jerusalem and he got imprisoned and then you know was stuck in Roman imprisonment for years and it's like was it God's will for him to go to Jerusalem like well he wrote you know Philippians and Ephesians or maybe not Philippians kosh anyways he like wrote some of the greatest books in the New Testament in that time. Um, so I think all I'm trying to say is uh God is perfectly within his right to lead us down a road that causes us to be hit by an 18-wheeler. Um, and like if that was his will, like like the point is not getting to the destination, it's being in in the the in what God's doing on the earth. So yeah, I felt like I was to go to Germany. a lot of things happened where that just became impossible and it was really devastating for me for a while. Um, but looking back on it now, I just seen the Lord's been able to do a much deeper work in parts of my soul that weren't open to him at the time. Yeah. Um, and also I got to meet my lovely wife in the in the meantime. Um, so yeah, that I' there's been a lot of learnings on my part of like what does it actually mean to be in this like vision of what God's doing? It means like a lot of suffering and a lot of like feeling like you're going the right way and then getting hit and then um but God's doing his central work that whole time and that's really what he's interested in. Not putting me in the right country or the right job. Yeah. Yeah. you know on that just uh you know like you mentioned when looking back you're seeing the Lord was able to do so much stuff in you and obviously arrange for your your dear wife yeah for which are very happy uh you know I I have consistently been touched by uh two verses at the end of Genesis you know I'm going to share but it's uh you know so Jacob arrives in in Egypt and he says as uh and he uh Joseph brings him before before Pharaoh and and says to him, you know, he introduces uh Pharaoh and Pharaoh kind of doesn't really seem to know what to say. So he says, you know, how how old are you? And and and Jacob says, you know, uh few and evil have been the days of my sojouring and they have not attained to the days of my fathers. And but then in the next chapter, he is blessing the sons of Joseph and he says, "The angel, the God who has shepherded me all the days of my life until this day, bless the boys." And so the boys, you know, we have this in our in our daily experience. It may seem that we are in the few and evil, but we look back and we realize that that has been God's shephering to us. He has shepherded us all of the days, including the ones we thought were few and evil were also God shephering to us. Yeah. So, a lot of times we are stuck only in the present. And of course, we're we're finite. We're stuck in time. This is the thing that we can see and it's it sucks. Yeah. But we but we realize and the Lord is building faith in us. Yeah. Through our experiences that in the midst of those things, we are being shepherded. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I've always really appreciated those those that pairing of verses. That's really good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just this came up in in another podcast um uh episode, but you know, really what I want to say is likeyou helped me a lot during those years when you felt like you were being hit by an 18-wheeler. And uh I heard uh before it's somebody told me it's like sometimes the Lord has a a heart to gain the worker and even transform the worker. Um and that was your experience. But you know, just like you said, while um Jacob or Israel at the time said those days were evil, he was able to bless someone. I felt like you you blessed me during my college years and I didn't know you were like suffering. It's it's the craziest thing. There was this uh experience when we were skiing. I don't know if you remember this. Oh yeah. Yeah. The first time I was skiing, oh my gosh, it was so bad. It was so bad. Like I kept falling, but Reese stayed. you stay and you kept picking me up. I kept falling. You kept picking me up. Everyone else was just Yeah. going. But that meant a lot to me because when I was at that trip, I I felt like a an impostor. Like I wasn't supposed to be there. And honestly, each time you pick me up, it it felt like the Lord was saying, "I'll keep going." Like these brothers will keep you keep you going. They'll pick you up. Um uh but anyway, like and then we had those those uh those uh Bible studies towards the end of my senior year about church history. Mhm. And honestly that set the course of my life. I saw that I'm in this like divine history. Wow. But um in a earlier podcast we said that you know you don't know what happens on the residual domino effect if you say yes to the Lord in the moment. But while he was gaining, he was also gaining me too. And it was like Anyway, that I'm just I'm just enjoying what you guys are sharing. But that's real. Yeah, that's real. Anyway, amen. Um, you know, a lot of our viewers, I think some, a good number, I think, are in the early 20, mid20s, early 30s, you know, like either finishing school and facing some decisions in life, you know, three of which I just wanted to see if you have any experiences on these. where to live, where to marry, what job to take. You know, I saw these three. If if if Texas and X sales are the answer, there are first everyone moved to Austin. No. Um follow Lord. But yeah, on these three topics, uh these truths that the Lord has revealed in your life along the way, who he is, what he's doing on the earth, how has how has the Lord Yeah. when you face these decisions where to live, where not to live, you know, how has the Lord been involved with these truths operating in you about what the Lord is doing? There's really I don't think there's a simple answer. Um because God exists outside of time and doesn't usually speak audibly to us. Um I think there's a couple of like key principles that have been like really central in my life when I'm trying to make those kinds of decisions. Um, one of the first is, you know, the Lord. If we come to the Lord, uh, for these big decisions and like those are the main times. We're kind of like I mentioned the cresteraster goer. We're kind of like the that type of scenario for wanting to interact with God. Like I'll come to God when there's a big decision to be made and then I'll put him to the side until the next one comes up. Um, and a lot of times if you're that kind of a Christian, which I have been several times, it's like you find he's pretty uh mute at that point. Like God's hiding himself from me. Um, so I think a key for this is having a regular time with the Lord where we are getting these little speakings. And by when speakings, I mean like shining light on a verse in the Bible or putting someone on your heart when you're praying to then pray for them and like learning tag because God in my experience isn't usually audible and clear, but there's like a sense within and there's light shining and there's just direction where it's like I have there's a verse in Romans that it's called Roman or Paul talks about a life and peace as like a guiding principle. Yeah. Um, so learning to kind of get this sense with the Lord in our regular mundane lives really helps with the bigger decisions later. It's good. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I totally agree. Uh um, you know, I it's it's just on your point, it's important to remember that the Lord himself is a person. Totally. And if you know if I have a you know if I if I only speak to you when I need something it's going to you know that that might make me feel a little uh used. Oh yeah. So you know uh I well I won't expose too much about uh my my my courtship with my now dear wife. Um but you know I I felt that the Lord was putting this person on my heart and I I did not I I didn't know what to do. So I did uh I did so I did one thing and I I went and I I shared with a brother that I was very close with and I said hey brother this I don't know what this means. Uh, I mean, this is, you know, this she's she's younger than me. She's my my wife is five years younger than me. Um, and you know, that's, you know, I'm 26, she's 21. That's a big gap right now. I mean, now that I'm 36 and she's 31, it doesn't feel as sick. But, uh, uh, at this school at the time, yes, she was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's she was had just completed her junior year. Uh, you know, I mean, she's still got a year of school. This is not the the regular timing of things. Uh what is happening here? The technical rule is divide by two add eight. She is just in the range. All right. Sorry. Keeping but so anyway I shared with this brother um that I was very close with and I said I don't know what to do. I I like and I kind of expected him to say yeah you should stop thinking about that. Uh but what he said was we should pray about this. So we prayed. Uh and then he said, "Now you need to pray by yourself a lot." And so and and then I did this and I you know later on I I said, "You know, it's been this period of time I've been praying. I still feel this way about this woman." And I and he said, "Well, then we we met again. We prayed again." And he said, "You know, really, we're just doing what John says." So John in his epistle he tells us that uh he says that I'm writing to you because I want you to have fellowship with me with with the John the writer and he says and indeed our fellowship is with the father. M so he was this brother kind of without giving me the the background was bringing me into this simultaneous fellowship where I'm connecting to God personally but I'm also connecting to God through the other believers and so there's a fellowship between us there's a fellowship between God and myself and then together we're going to God so a lot of times in my experience this is how the Lord Lord speaks is in when we involve kind of all of this these aspects of both his speaking through himself the head directly to us and his speaking through the other members. Yeah. Um, you know, of course, you know, we we should be, you know, wise about who we open our situation to, of course, but uh I in my experience, a lot of times the Lord has, in a sense, it's like he's reserved his feelings, kind of held back his his response until I've been open with at least one other member because, you know, God's view is that we we his church are we are a corporate body. There's there is a relatedness between the members and if it's if I could get you know all my answers quotequote just from the head then I would never need to bring the real me the real situation to the other brothers and so the Lord in this way I feel that he he is waiting for us in a in many cases to to open things to him directly and then to open them to the a member of his body also and to pray together in that way. So, I mean, I'm not trying to make a method out of this, but this has been my experience, you know, uh uh I one more smaller example. I I I took a promotion at work several couple years ago now. And um I I was really kind of hesitant about it cuz the job that the lower position I had had given me a kind of a a shortened schedule so I could really I had a whole day on Mondays where I could be with be with the brothers and you know get into the word, pray. It was was it was great and I would have to give that up to take this other position. And I opened it to a, you know, a group that was meeting at my home at that time on every Tuesday night. And I said, you know, this position, I think I'm going to get it if I apply for it, you know, and we prayed together. And nobody said, well, you should definitely do it or you should definitely not do it. But afterwards, I we after our prayer, I had some peace like you said. I had I had a feeling of peace as I considered the position, I considered the application. I just had this feeling of peace like go forward, do it. And that I I really took that as the Lord's answer through the prayer of you know this group that I was close with. Yeah. I I want to add to the um because I you reminded me of experience I had when I was uh I was working after college before going to the Bible program and um I just got this the sweetest job out of college. Like it wasn't a glor glamorous job when I got it but then we got acquired. there's all this growth and then I was able to get promoted really quickly to where I was doing really well and but I I committed like I want to go to this program once I've paid off my student loans and it was like 8 months into the job I paid off the loans it was like done I'm free to go and uh there's a verse I think it's in Jeremiah I'm wrong word says uh the heart is deceitful above all things who can know it Um, and so I just appreciate what David said. It's like uh the being in Christian community and with brothers and sisters that uh we can pray with and be held accountable with is crucial because our heart is easily deceived and deceives us. Yeah. Um because there is the Lord in our in our being that he has the ability to speak to us, but we also have this evil fleshly heart that he's trying to transform that can be deceiving us. And so I'm have this great job and then all these excuses come up. You know, if I work another year, I could pay my way through this program myself and have a little bit stored up and like why wouldn't I do that? Like it makes sense to just, you know, even though I committed like once my loans are paid, I'm gone. The love of money is a root of all evils, right? And I was saying this noble reason how I would use this job for the next year, but really I just liked making money. Um, and I was with this brother who I'd been fellowshipping with this whole time and just he was able to speak kind of a frank word to me that made it really clear and like shine light into my deceitful heart and it was done and I quit the job went and the Lord was very gracious to give me a little outward sign in this moment cuz uh that company got acquired by a private equity group and the whole Austin office was gone in two months after I quit. It was just like the Lord I think he did that just for my sake to show me. Yeah, you should follow pastor spirit and wow. Yeah, that's good. So, do you two have a like if you're going through a situation that needs some fellowship? Do you have a go-to person that you have a person that is a brother or Yep. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's changed over the years. There's always I feel like I find that so good that you have someone that immediately comes to head that you can think of going to. Mhm. What would you say to a young believer who maybe doesn't have someone, you know, maybe is a, you know, Sunday going to church and it's just there and maybe parents are not believers or whatever and they don't have someone. Well, how would you or or they even find it hard to open up, right? I don't know if you guys were like that at one point where it was hard to open up, but like what tips do you have? Because if you don't have that fellowship, Yeah. you're living like a 50% Christian life, you know? But anyway, our fellowship was with one another and with the father like David said. Yeah. Yeah,I I just briefly say I mean I I've always found it more helpful to fellowship with someone who's a little bit older than me, a little more experienced and seems to have been around the block a time or two with the Lord. There's just a lot of like uh wisdom and rich like deposits of the spirit saints where that God's been working in for years, you know. Um, and a lot of times it's a lot easier to approach them like going to a fellow believer and like opening up that that was always harder to me. But like going to my youth minister in high school or you know someone is kind of more of in a mentor role. It was always like they're looking for that like they want to shepherd Christians. So I think that's a great place to start. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. I mean my first thought when you were you were talking Pablo is I it's really good uh it's really good to bring that matter to the Lord you know if you are I mean I know it has seems like a copout answer to say that you should pray about it but in reality this is you know that's certainly this is something the Lord wants you know we see throughout especially the writings of Paul the emphasis on the body and of the the other members of considering the other members you know Corin Thians he talks about this in Philippians he talks about this and he says so this is definitely on God's heart and I would say if you if you offer a prayer like this Lord who can I be joined to Lord give me someone else that I can pray with certainly that is something that's a prayer God is really excited to answer uh but and you know how how can you open to someone well I mean certainly I I it's I have that's something I I struggle with um even to the present. But one of the things that really helps me is like the brother I was thinking about I won't say who that is but the brother who I was thinking about uh I know that whatever I share with him is he's going to take seriously and he's going to pray about it. M um so knowing that the knowing the other person that you're speaking to has this kind of view that that our lives should be for for Christ in the church. Yeah. It means that whatever you you bring to them is that's that's how they're going to take it is that and they're they're going to pray about it. They're going to take it seriously and they'll pray in a uh way that will join your problem. Yeah. to the Lord and his the Lord the spirit the supply of the spirit to to you in your situation. Yeah, that's really good. Just I agree with you know both of your points. Re someone older to me that's so true. you know it has to be someone has more experience um and then uh to pray about it and I and I and I feel that you know one of you mentioned of that you know when you go to the Lord and it's only when you have needs it's you almost get a non-response right yeah I feel like with members of the body it's the same thing you don't just want to go then you know you want to be known by someone a way that is continual you know like totally I have this practice whenever there's a conference at church or something I always find this brother and I just have a meal with him or something, you know, just so that whether there's something going on or not, sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't. There's still the the just the continual fellowship, you know, like he just knows me, he sees my face, like, okay. And then when something's going on, then it's not as awkward, you know, bring something up, you know? So, for sure. Yeah. I think anyways, I find that that I I don't think I would be here if it wasn't for those relationships that you guys are mentioning. Yeah. Um, you guys both mention something in your decision- making that might be foreign to the viewer. Um, but when people uh are making decisions, they usually make a pros and cons list. They might make a costbenefit analysis, you know, matrix or uh they might look at the risk, their assumptions and all these things. But you guys talked about having peace. What is what does that mean? Where where did that term come from? And I was reminded when you were saying the procon list. There's a verse and David you can keep me honest here. I think it's in second Corinthians. It's either that or first. Um I think it's second but Paul is talking about hey it's somewhere else but he's talking about uh how there was a door open to him in Macedonia meaning like God has opened up a an avenue for the gospel to be preached. Um then it says Paul says but I had no peace. He said, "No peace in my spirit." Uh because Titus, my brother, had not come yet to give news about the Corinthians. But point is like environmentally the right move was to go forward into Macedonia and preach the gospel. But Paul inwardly in his spirit, it says, had no peace. Yeah. Um, and so I think that, yeah, the the practical list building, which I am guilty of doing that all the time, and it's actually really smart to do in practical situations, but with the Lord doesn't always work. Um, but there's like a it's hard to describe, but when you when you feel it or you know it, you know it. Um, peace is just a sense of like I, you know, I'm at peace. I People know peace. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Um, but that you can be praying about something and and I think it's also helpful. Sorry, there's another verse comes to mind where when Paul's going into uh into Europe for the first time. I think it's in Acts 16. It says he was going into I think Asia and the spirit stopped him. Yep. He was going into, you know, somewhere else and this spirit of Jesus prevented him. Yep. It's like Paul was moving but the Lord was able to stop him. So he was on the move but responsive. He wasn't just praying in a room until he got an answer. Um, it's like as we move, as we're doing going in a direction, there needs to be a a continual kind of uh conversation with the Lord. We're talking about like we're always in an open fellowship with him. So that whenever we feel that sense of lack of peace, maybe that's easier to feel than peace is the lack of peace. Then you know I'm off course. I need to turn. The Lord's turning me. The Lord can move a boat, right? That's moving. Turn it. That's moving. The static boat's really difficult to turn. Classic metaphor. Yeah. Yeah. Uh well, you know, I I kind of have a little log jam of different things I want to say, but uh you know, for the sake of time, uh you know, uh I I really appreciate this definition of peace. Um, so 2 Corinthians, sorry, 2 Thessalonians 3:16, uh, Paul concludes that that epistle with, uh, he says, "Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace continually in every way. The Lord be with you." And you know, uh, there peace is uh, equated to the presence of the Lord. M. So when when we experience uh just like Reese was saying, when we're taking a step, we know if the Lord is with us or not by the turmoil in us or the complete lack of it. Yeah. And when we when we sense the stillness, that's a real indication the Lord is with us. He as the Lord of peace is is with us. And you know just an interesting story on on um along with uh the the door in in uh second uh first second Corinthian second you're right that Titus you got me um is uh you know in in Mark Mark 1 uh the Lord has this you know he he's he's in a village he's doing he does a miracle and then he uh he's rises up very early while it was still night he went out and went away and Simon And those with him hunted for him and they found him and said to him, "All are seeking you." And you know, you would think this is such a great Jesus. This is the thing. Didn't you come to for the people to see you? And but the Lord the Lord went away and he prayed and he said and after he prayed, he said, "Situation's great, but uh we have to go." He said to them, "Let us go elsewhere into the nearby towns that I may preach there also because for this purpose I came out." And so, you know, we we don't follow God according to the environment. We follow God according to his speaking. You know, I can't tell you why the Lord did not stay where he was and preach to the the whole the whole town was seeking him. This was great. Yeah. Yeah. Peter hunted for him. I like that verb. Uh Uh and but God but the father told him we need to go to another village and the Lord just said that's right that's what we're going to do. So in our in all of our choices, we need to, you know, we need to consider like we were talking about uh the fellowship, the prayer, the the the peace, the feeling that the Lord is satisfied with our choice. And you know, the environment is the environment. The Lord, it's very easy for the Lord to uh to all to change the environment so easily. He's God. Yes. The thing that he won't intervene on is the human heart. Yeah. He for for him to for him to just you know uproot you know to say to this so easy yeah so easy so easy he's the creator but for he has said I'm I'm not going to to command the human heart to love me wow so that is the thing that we need to that is the thing that he is waiting on us is for our choice to love yeah you know I like this this point of peace I think it's so sweet that for for us to learn to do things but guided by peace I want I wonder if If this is related to this question on Pisa, you shared with us on a call we had earlier that at one point you were considering moving to another city. Yeah. To to strengthen the the community of the church there and eventually you didn't go or something like that I think. Is was there this peace experience there like having or not having peace in that? Can you share a little bit about your experience? Yeah. uh you know, we uh my my wife and I uh we had been we' prayed for a while about this matter about uh you know, the the church community here in Austin is really strong. You know, there's uh there's a specific city that we knew that had, you know, a much smaller group and that um you know, could we go? I mean, you know, we have some flexibility and uh you know, we went and visited and and you know, we as we were before we were going, as we were there, we of course were praying together and we prayed with the the believers there as well. And of course, they you know, they wanted us to come, but you know, uh they said, you know, we'd we can't tell you, you know, it's it has to be from from from the head. And you know, we we got back, we we felt very strongly that we needed to go and visit. And when we got back, I I didn't I didn't really have any feeling to go. Uh and I, you know, I I wondered, you know, is this just my choice? Is this like, oh, my my personal preference is to stay where I am, and I'm not allowing the Lord to speak. M but I we continued to pray and you know I was really confirmed by my wife having the same feeling that we had we we definitely needed to go and we wouldn't have peace until we visited there. Yeah. But once we once we came back we just had peace to remain where we are. And you know in a sense it's kind of like why why did the Lord have us go? I that's that's not my business. But that's right. But we went and we had peace to be there and we had peace to come back and we have had peace to remain in Austin. And that's you know you know one of the things that I and I know we're short on time here but I I I Okay. I love this verse uh in uh another verse Genesis about the matter of the going to get Rebecca. Yeah. and and and uh the servant there says you know I'm taking her back. Yeah. Is this and then Laban Laban he says he says the matter the fate is from Jehovah. Yeah. We cannot answer you good or bad. And this is really our this is how we make choices in in the Christian life is we realize if this is of God it's not a matter of right and wrong yes or no. It's it's question of is it of God or is it not? Amen. Yeah. And that's and God is expressed by peace in us, right? Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Amen. Wow. Well, I think we're almost there, huh? Time. Yeah. Should we do these questions, these last questions quick? Your your rap fire questions. We like to end each episode with a few rapid fire questions. So, just the first thing that comes to mind. Um, I'll just try to get through it really quickly, but favorite book in the Bible and why. Um, I'll go with second Corinthians. I have not heard that. Okay, go ahead. Uh, it's like the most autobiographical kind of book. A lot of in-depth stuff about Paul's life. And my favorite verse, uh, chapter 8, verse 9 is in there. Okay. Everyone can go look it up afterwards. Yeah, that was going to be the second question. You ruined it, but anyway. Uh, yeah, I'll go. I'll go John. Um just uh the the depth of what is revealed about the Lord. Um uh you know the real reading if you just read through John 17 viewers out there just read through John 17 prayerfully and it I mean wolf what a what a chapter. All right that's good. Um it's and the next one is the verse. Yeah. Favorite verse in Oh gosh. Uh I knew it was coming. Yeah. Um, apparently yours is John 17. No, I I mean the thing is I can't say I understand John 17. So uh you know I don't know what what all um I'm stalling here. Um yeah uh probably 1 Corinthians 1:30 uh that that of God you are in Christ Jesus. Yeah, wonderful deep verse. Well brothers, thank you so much. Wow. What's up? What was your favorite verse today? 2 Corinthians 89. What does it say? It talks about like a definition of grace. Christ who being rich became poor in order that we might become rich in him. I mean uh big question is what was he rich in prior that we're becoming rich in now? Anyways for that go to his podcast with anger. We're going to we're going to put a link in the description so you can listen to that answer. But anyways it's been great to have you brothers. Thank you so much Reese and David. Thanks for the invite. And anyways, follow us, comment, like, and uh we'll we'll be back next week with another episode. Subscribe button. Smash the subscribe button like Reese said. All right. Thank you guys. Thank you for joining us today. Don't forget to hit that like button, subscribe, and leave us a comment below. We love chatting with you guys. We've got so much more content and powerful testimonies coming your way. So follow us on our socials. And until next time, stay safe. Keep speaking about the words of this life.